medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I am sure that I have seen dispensations relating how a cleric had shed
blood displayed to the bishop before ordination.
Rosemary Hayes
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Shinners" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Nothing 'chivalric' about medieval priests
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> No, you're right I think. But in hunting for the Gratian citation
> earlier, I lost sight of the original point I wanted to raise about
> ordaining knights. If I recall correctly, wouldn't a previous homicide be
> considered an impediment to orders that would require dispensation before
> ordination? Wouldn't this suggest that a knight could be ordained if a)
> he received dispensation for previous bloodshed, and b) he put aside (or
> at least promised to put aside) his knightly profession?
>
> But clearly the prohibition could be honored in the brecch. I just
> remembered that Henry V issued a muster to the English clergy (or at least
> to the Hereford clergy, where this is from) in 1415: "On the twenty-ninth
> day of June [1415], the bishop [of Hereford] received a writ from the king
> that he should muster the clergy of the diocese, regular as well as
> secular, exempt and nonexempt and gather and unite them into an effective
> fighting force as their abilities may allow. They are to be rallied and
> arrayed in resistance of the wanton malice and infestation of the enemies
> of Holy Mother Church, the king and kingdom under forfeiture of anything
> they can forfeit."
>
> This is six weeks before the battle of Agincourt. Presumably a national
> emergency could override the canons!
>
> Best,
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------
> John Shinners
> Professor of Humanistic Studies
> Saint Mary's College
> Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
> Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534
> Fax: 284-4855
> www.saintmarys.edu/~hust
>
> "Learn everything. Afterwards you will see that nothing is
> rfluous." -- Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Herwig Weigl <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:14:38 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Nothing 'chivalric' about medieval priests
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> John Shinners schrieb:
>> Gratian would seem to rule out knights being ordained.
> he refers only to clerics who kill. But this canon does not exclude lay
> persons from being ordained if they have killed before.
>
> Best, h.w.
>> In Distinctio 50, c. 5 he says:
>>
>> "Clericum, qui paganum occiderit, non oportet ad maiorem gradum prouehi,
>> qui carere debet etiam acquisito, homicida enim est. Nam cum discreti
>> sint milites seculi a militibus ecclesiae, non conuenit militem ecclesiae
>> militare seculo, per quod ad effusionem sanguinis necesse sit peruenire."
>>
>> ("It is not fitting for a cleric who has killed a pagan to advance to a
>> higher order, which he should be deprived of even if he has achieved it,
>> since this is homicide. For since secular soldiers/knights should be
>> distinct from the soldiers/knights of the church, it does not suit a
>> soldier of the church to fight for the secular world, from which the
>> spilling of blood would result of necessity.")
>
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