I couldn't agree more with H.-H. Noll.
Please stop the spam or unsubscribe me from the list.
Mathieu Albert
-----Original Message-----
From: Newsletter of the European Sociological Association (ESA)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of H.-H. Noll
Sent: January 9, 2009 1:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: AW: please discuss politics elsewhere
As it seems, the 'gentle reminder' of the list manager does not help. If
there are no other possibilites to stop this spam, we'll have to
unsubscribe from this list!
H.-H. Noll
David Seddon schrieb:
> Dear Herr Pohoryles - you clearly were not listening then.
>
> The bitter divisions within the Palestinian political movement are a
> matter of historical record, all the way back to 1967 and before. Many of
> us who broadly sympathise with the situation of the Palestinian
> politicans, faced with legacy both of internal division and also of
> massive and persistent repression by the Israeli government and its armed
> forces over a period 60 years, have nevertheless criticised them for
> failing to overcome these divisions and present a principled, coherent and
> effective, united front, representing in a democratic fashion the wishes
> and desires of the Palestinian people and their opposition to the illegal
> occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel and to Israel's efforts to
> deny the Palestinian people their own independent state (or alternatively
> a real equal stake in a single unified Palestinian/Israeli state)..
>
> Having lived for two years in South Africa, and having left because of the
> unacceptable restrictions of apartheid, I maintain a strong interest in
> and concern for the welfare of the people of South Africa and the struggle
> they continue to wage to secure effective democratic representation and
> sustainable development. The hostility that was shown by some sections of
> the Black African population in the Transvaal in particular towards
> immigrant and migrant workers and asylum seekers from Zimbabwe, was
> deplorable, but understandable - just as the violence pereptrated on
> Israeli civilians by Palestinian para-military groups is delorable, but
> understandable - in the circumstances of continued repression and poverty.
>
> The difference between South Africa today and Israel/Palestine today, is
> that the formal structures of apartheid have been dismantled in South
> Africa but remain, stronger than ever, in the case of Israel/Palestine.
> Although inequality and social injustice remain, the political framework
> has changed in South Africa in the last decade, for the better; in Israel,
> the last decade has seen ever more aggressive state intervention to
> deprive the Palestinians of their land, their livelihoods, their
> (admittedly limited degree of) autonomy under occupation, and their
> identity, using a variety of methods to create a distinctive form of
> apartheid and to destroy the economy and society - and any hope of a
> normal life - within the 'bantustans' of the West Bank and Gaza.
>
> Just as poor South Africans, under pressure, lashed out at those they saw
> as threatening their livelihoods, but whose situation was arguably even
> worse than their own, so supporters of Hamas and al-Fatah (and other
> groups) have fought each other bitterly, in desperation, undermining their
> own potential for unity against Israeli oppression.
>
> david seddon
>
>
>> STOP THIS
>>
>> I haven't heard anything from you when the Hamas slaughtered in an
>> barbaric way Fatah people during the civil war in Gaza. Neither anything
>> about the killing of migrant workers and asylum seekers in South Africa.
>>
>> You just react, when Jews are involved...
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Newsletter of the European Sociological Association (ESA)
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von David Seddon
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 09. Jänner 2009 16:51
>> An: [log in to unmask]
>> Betreff: Re: please discuss politics elsewhere
>>
>> what IS sociology if not a critical mode of analysis and discourse
devoted
>> to making sense of complex issues in society, contemporary and past -
>> those of us involved in debate in this company of colleagues are
>> unavoidably engaged in a critique of political positions adopted on the
>> basis of some kind of ssocial analysis and understanding.
>>
>> I do not agree that the attempt to promote the institutional academic
>> boycott is 'anti-sociological' in so far as it is a political action
based
>> on an analysis of the historical, political-economic and sociological
>> situation in a particular region of the world that has serious
>> implications not only for those living in the societies and social
>> formations directly concerned but also for those living elsewhere but
>> indirectly concerned in various ways.
>>
>> The contemporary crisis of Palestinian/Israeli politics is deeply
>> associated with the historical realities and the different perceptions
>> (American, European, Middle Eastern) of the development of Israeli and
>> Palestinian society, the sociology of the British Mandate, European
>> visions of Arab and Jewish society in the territory, and Arab and Jewish
>> perceptions of possible futures during the first half of the 20th
century.
>> If European sociologists are not interested in these issues and their
>> significance, then shame on them.
>>
>> david seddon
>>
>> > Dear Rene,
>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your intervention. However, I feel it was misplaced. The
>>> attempt to raise a boycott was itself anti-sociological, because it
>>> would silence rather than open dialogue.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I feel very strongly that in this crisis sociological understanding is
>>> important, when it is distanced from campaigns for the partisan
>>> promotion of ideological positions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that some of the postings have been outside the terms of use of
>>> the list, but I hope you do not mean that European sociology should not
>>> reflect on and engage sociologically with politics and political issues.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For instance, the last three postings have drawn attention to sources
>>> that are sociologically relevant to the current crisis which had been
>>> raised as an issue on this list by the email campaign for a boycott.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Michael S. Drake
>>>
>>> Lecturer and Undergraduate Programme Director for Sociology
>>>
>>> Department of Social Sciences
>>>
>>> University of Hull
>>>
>>> Cottingham Road
>>>
>>> Hull
>>>
>>> HU6 7RX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tel.: +44 (0)1482 465770
>>>
>>> email: [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Newsletter of the European Sociological Association (ESA)
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bekkers, R.
>>> (Rene)
>>> Sent: 09 January 2009 14:19
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: please discuss politics elsewhere
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a message from one of the European-sociologist list managers.
>>> I'd like to remind all of you that the list is intended as a tool
>>> facilitating cooperation and discussion in European sociology. See
>>> http://www.europeansociology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&
>>> id=17&Itemid=36
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We've seen quite some postings in the past weeks discussing an academic
>>> boycott. As these messages concerned academic matters, I felt there was
>>> no need to close or moderate the list. But lately the messages sent to
>>> the list seem to get less and less connected to research and teaching in
>>> sociology. So this is a gentle reminder to all of you of the purpose of
>>> the list. There are plenty of opportunities to discuss politics and
>>> matters not related to European sociology elsewhere on the internet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rene Bekkers
>>>
>>> European-sociologist list manager
>>>
>>>
****************************************************************************
*************
>>> To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to
>>> http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html
>>>
****************************************************************************
*************
>>>
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