medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
We are bound to be talking this through at some length on Saturday - -
at a previous session, John and Sally Harper were arguing for the
possibility (no more) that the church at Llandeilo Talybont might have
had a small organ. Its permanent endowment was small but it was on a
pilgrimage route and there's a lot of evidence for rebuilding in the
late medieval period. There are also 2 potential patrons - the local
marcher lord, Charles Somerset earl of Worcester, and Sir Rhys ap Thomas
of Dinefwr.
We will report back.
Maddy
Dr Madeleine Gray, in the foothills of God's golden county of Gwent
Senior Lecturer in History
School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT,
Wales/Cymru
Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
'I ask you for help. And all you give me is ...papers!'
(Magda in Gian Carlo Menotti's The Consul)
History at University of Wales, Newport: http://timezone.newport.ac.uk
Gwent County History Association website:
http://gwent-county-history-association.newport.ac.uk
Cistercian Way: http://cistercian-way.newport.ac.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jon
Cannon
Sent: 11 November 2008 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
I wouldn't take my corrective too far: the very fact that I raised the
issue is proof that 'full' choir stalls would be very unusual in a
parish
church. Certainly my examples, if they come from the parish at all,
appear
to be linked to a local aristocratic patron. Still, it seems such things
could be possible, and certainly the C15 shows no shortage of rich
kittings-out of churches, even as you say in rural areas: Weston in
Gordano is only just over the Severn from you, as the crow flies, or the
saint swims (or floats, preferably atop a leaf or a millstone or
somesuch...).
Jon
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:46:03 +0000From:
[log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing
the
OfficeTo: [log in to unmask]: Scholarly
discussions of medieval religion and culture
I would have thought from the small amount of documentary material
(including its tax records - it was poor in 1291) that I have looked at
for Llandeilo Talybont that choir stalls would be a very unauthentic
addition to St Teilo's. If there was anything it is more likely to be a
bench than a stall I should think - but see Jon's comments to argue
against me and John - and your two remote parishes.
Much looking forward to meeting you on Saturday.
Rosemary Hayes
----- Original Message -----
From: Madeleine Gray
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and singing the Office
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
I was thinking more of secular colleges and of the chantries Williamson
referred to where teaching the children to sing was part of the priest's
duties.
In more practical terms, should I be looking for a choirboys' bench
built
into the stalls, or were they ever free-standing? (I'm thinking ahead in
case the Museum ever decides to go for stalls at Llandeilo Talybont)
BTW - looking for something entirely different - I've come across
references in the Caernarvonshire Inventory of Ancient Monuments to
misericords in two very remote parishes in Llyn, at Abererch and
Llanengan. The Llanengan ones are particularly interesting: the N stalls
have plain misericords, the S set have fixed seats.
Maddy
Dr Madeleine Gray
Senior Lecturer in History
School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
'You may not be able to change the world but at least you can embarrass
the guilty'(Jessica Mitford)
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
culture on behalf of John BriggsSent: Sun 09/11/2008 6:42 PMTo:
[log in to unmask]: Re: [M-R] misericords and
singing
the Office
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
cultureI'm a bit baffled as to what extent boys participated in the main
services.(And, by the end of the Middle Ages at least, whether there
were
still"children" in monasteries.) At monastic cathedrals I'm pretty
certain
thatboys only participated in the Lady Mass in the Lady Chapel (with the
hiredSinging Men). At secular cathedrals they certainly participated at
servicesin the Choir, but I don't know if that means all of them.John
BriggsMadeleine Gray wrote:>> Thanks, John. I shall look out for those.>
Were they expected to take part in the night offices?>> From:
medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious> culture
on behalf of John Briggs> Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 6:19 PM> To:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and
singing the Office>> Boys sat on a bench in front of the choirstalls.>>
John Briggs>>> Madeleine Gray wrote:>>>> That is actually a key point -
a
lot of Magnus Williamson's evidence>> is for choirs of boys.>>>> From:
medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious>>
culture
on behalf of Marjorie Greene>> Sent: Sun 09/11/2008 2:05 PM>> To:
[log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: [M-R] misericords and
singing the Office>>>> That would depend on where the, um, cheeks were.
I
frequent a>> monastery where the range in personal height goes from
under
5' to>> over 6'. Thanks for the
info.*******************************************************************
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