emm..how many low angle shots and sepia washes can one audience need to get the point?

________________________________

From: Film-Philosophy Salon on behalf of Stan
Sent: Thu 13/11/2008 6:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Is there a morale in Galdiator....


erm... is there some sort of moral debate to be had on the filmic techniques used? 
Cheers,
Stan

On 14/11/2008, at 1:24 PM, Matheson, Sue wrote:


	Hi Indra:  usually I don't write in but because this conversation is about Gladiator I just can't resist.  Gladiator is such a terrible piece of trash I'm afraid I can't take any of the morals it has seriously.  I'm afraid I just threw up my hands after the first ten minutes and suffered through the rest with the friend who wanted me to watch it. Sorry, but I have to agree with Bill this time wholeheartedly.  Perhaps the horrible heavy handedness of the attempt to provide some sort of moral education/edification was a large part of the film's problem.  I guess I'm just not a fourteen-year old boy at heart.
	
	Sue 
	
	________________________________
	
	From: Film-Philosophy Salon on behalf of Shaw, Dan
	Sent: Thu 13/11/2008 5:40 PM
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: Is there a morale in Galdiator....
	
	
	
	Hello Indra:
	
	There seem to be several morals to the story of Gladiator, which is easy to dismiss except for the fact that it delivers on the cliched pleasures it aims at:
	
	1)  Marcus Aurelius dies at the hands of his own son because he intends to restore the republic...so it champions republicanism (with a small r)
	
	It shows the loyalty of Maximus to his charge from Aurelius in a very positive light.
	
	3)  It extols masculine values of ferocity in battle and stoic acceptance of pain, while also celebrating the notion of cooperation rather than going it alone (the "Carthagenians", following Maximus' lead,  win the reenactment because they stick together) 
	
	4)  It also depicts an afterlife in which Maximus will find peace, and be reunited with his slain family, a singularly Christian notion.
	
	"For beauty is the beginning of terror we are still able to bear, and why we love it so is because it so serenely disdains to destroy us"  Rilke's First Duino Elegy
	
	Daniel Shaw
	Professor of Philosophy and Film
	Lock Haven University
	Managing Editor, Film and Philosophy
	website: www.lhup.edu/dshaw
	
	
	________________________________
	
	From: Film-Philosophy Salon on behalf of indra karan
	Sent: Thu 11/13/2008 5:22 PM
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: Is there a morale in Galdiator....
	
	
	
	It is so appalling that given my experience that most discussions get reduced to a reductionist trivia or some of the scholars engaging in , what is akin to a street brawl, employing rhetoric or sophistry,leading to subversion of " the problematic", most often employing secondary or non epistemic inquiry.
	
	so let me rephrase my question again-
	
	with in the eastern tradition of story telling,the justification of the narrative lies in it morale( what is morale of the story..?), which is either born of a subjective motive or an observed objective phenomenon. 
	
	Talking about "Gladiator"- With in the western tradition of story telling, does it correspondingly hold any morale to it.?
	
	The  above question was born out of my discussion with a fellow scholar, where in our observation and also understanding ,we concurred that with in the deep philosophical understanding of Hindu mythology and also in my observation at various discussion forums,the question of right and wrong and even that of morality are addressed in a  fashion that it  is subjected to "karma" or karmic logic/Divine logic, other than that there is no upholding of any moral position philosophically speaking.
	
	Yet when we examine,   with in the constructs of narratives/ story telling ( most popularly -pancha tantra),the question of morale is a necessary condition to be addressed for the justification of the birth of the narrative in- what is the morale of the story..? and in addition, in the most observable phenomenon of popular movies( Asian) the  same is being addressed by defining the characters with in the frame work of good and bad and moving the narrative to its conclusion accordingly.
	
	Where as in the Western tradition both of narrative and film, there no such prerequisite for a story to be told, yet with in the dynamics of Western culture the same(morality) gets addressed in day today life, while also as "moral philosophy".
	
	It is very well understood that film being a construct or a reconstruct, whether it is realistic or artistic, which being the least significant issues for the present  to be bothered with as in our understanding that film employs its own grammar and protocols for the justification of the said narrative and also the aesthetics, with which the critics could differ with ample freedom and also in some cases with justification.
	
	So in reference to what I said as being appalling is that the "porps"( history, sets,costume etc) should have assumed such an importance while the question being, with out any ambiguity whether The movie "Gladiator"per say has any morality to it , in addition, it also being representational either in popular or historical sense with in the Western tradition of story telling.
	
	The fact that the early learning process with in the eastern cultures, where the stories told, not only act as a stimuli for imagination and entertainment but also act as cognitive stimuli in imbibing the moral logic, which can be expanded or explored as a philosophy, once the pupil are grown up. So the dynamics of right and wrong and also that of morality are addressed even through folk stories, where in the notion of justice( Divine or worldly) become universal across class and caste dynamics, that gives room for any individual to refer to the code of "Morale in any given situation of conflict or moral ambiguity and yet understand the whole dynamic with in the frame work of karma, where the concept of Evil or bad gets addressed in a larger framework,like in the case of mythologies( lending necessary logic to the events and happenings).
	
	As in Manning's statement-
	
	Perhaps historical accuracy is the wrong intention. Moral education
	might be expanded not by the contemplation of what the film presents,
	but by what virtues it reveals to be discussed.
	
	Unfortunately some amongst us with the characteristic eloquence and more than necessary scholarship, often take the discussion in  to a motive based explanation, either by employing the technique of ridicule or scholarly indifference, which necessarily does not explain anything of significance( the work or Philosophy).
	
	The morale here is not about questioning the Authors/film makers (privilege), right to present his/her work in a manner that is subjective( which include all the inputs) or commercial/entertainment/popular etc,( which also I believe some scholars uphold film as being an entertainment and a commercial product).
	
	In this case no objective that needs to be addressed,since all creative work is subjective( if one has any objections at the fundamental level then one should actually address the subject by making a film).
	
	The point that requires our attention is whether the work( film ) in its creative expression has any input or subject matter for a philosophical inquiry.If so whether it address the question with necessary clarity where we as Film -Philosophy scholars find it worth examining,
	other than that any address/expression is a mere reflection of ones own eccentricity and boredom, something what we critic in the first place- the author or filmmaker and their work being either relevant or not for our inquiry.
	
	regards,
	karan.
	
	
	
	
	________________________________
	
	From: Manning <[log in to unmask]>
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:25:33 PM
	Subject: Re: Is there a morale in Galdiator....
	
	Perhaps historical accuracy is the wrong intention. Moral education
	might be expanded not by the contemplation of what the film presents,
	but by what virtues it reveals to be discussed. Hence Paths of Glory is
	incredibly inaccurate in many ways but what emerge are discussions about
	truth and integrity. What we then make of them, when we pare away our
	psychological prejudices  may be an enhancement of out curiosity and
	flexibility about human behaviour(Nietzsche) or a moment of spiritual
	unselfing (Iris Murdoch) The films moral gravitas can then be separated
	from its  factual accountability. But then, Saddam Hussein's favourite
	film was the Godfather..
	rwm
	
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tel:  0064/7/8384466/8362
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www.waikato.ac.nz/film




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