I don't think I am a professional poet, Judy, more a demented amateur,
it might be my vocation, and I often wish to hell it wasn't, although
I love writing poems it also has the patina of 'ancestral sin' to me (
that was apparently what the early Christians called what Augustine
turned into 'original sin')
Dostoevsky sadly had an awful anti-semitic streak although I agree
with you, there is a kind of Yiddisher-feel to it. He wouldn't have
appreciated that compliment, I believe.
Best
dave
2008/9/10 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> Is that about where you are, personally, Dave, or professional-poetically?
> Godot will likely come, then.
> Don't quite know why I never went a bundle on his play. Do know that some
> of that cynicism bulged more beautifully and memorably, for me, in Eugene
> Ionesco's play, _The Chairs_. And August Strindberg's _The Dream Play_.
> [Totally Unrelated Note: I do wish you'd post more of your memoir!!!! IT
> NEEDS WRITTEN {as many Scots and English--and even some northeastern
> USAmericans say}!]
>
> BTW, and back to Alison's reference to the immaculately grim short story,
> 'Notes of An Underground Man'......I'm thinking that the 'hero' was one of
> the few folk in history to embody a schlemiel, a shlemazl, and a schmuck.
> Do you Yiddish me?
>
> Alison, if you're listening to this, since 'tis hard for me to imagine even
> a shaky laugh for N of AUM, I must have you explain Australian humour to
> me!! I just don't get it! <g>
>
> Back to Birk: Love the new friend's inviting you to his funeral---a true
> kindred spirit!
>
> Best,
>
> soba noodles
>
> 2008/9/9 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> Here's another PS for you Judy. My re-write and take on Samuel
>> Beckett's joke is:
>>
>> 'God, the bastard, he does exist'.
>>
>> Now that's about where I am.
>>
>>
>> Yrs
>>
>> davo
>>
>> 2008/9/9 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
>> > See, Dave, you were 'having me on', what many USAmericans would call
>> > 'teasing' or 'joking'. Billions of words've been written on English wit;
>> > how USAmericans don't get it and can't do it themselves. If I didn't
>> > believe there was a divide in the humor [humour] department between our
>> > countries, I wouldn't mentioned it here. But I find the divide
>> fascinating
>> > all real. The difference may be tied to our separate 'takes' on
>> religion,
>> > conformity, 'sociability', and word choices. Naturally, these
>> differences
>> > hang mostly on who were our respective forbears.
>> > [A quick non-aside here and now: You write 'centre', we write 'center'.
>> > Most Americans would assume that the Brit spelling is 'older', but in
>> fact
>> > it is 'younger' than the American spelling. Many phrases and expressions
>> > used now in the USA are no longer used in the UK [UQ]. This is just one
>> > 'proof' of how insular USAmerica is and has been. That's the second part
>> of
>> > my theory about our different humor and our ways of being sociable or
>> > religious. I theorize, in a nutshell, that those differences derive from
>> > who came to America [largely from your country], as well as their
>> > offspring-generations who remained secluded here, geographically, for
>> some
>> > 500-plus years. After all, island folk (e.g., Brits, Japanese,
>> > Scandinavian) are known for their resourceful "visiting" [read
>> 'plundering']
>> > other countries with more and different resources.
>> >
>> > All USAmericans needed to do was to lay claim to and wrest the entire
>> > country's land from native Americans, buy land "owned" by Russia and
>> France,
>> > steal some from Mexico, and this immense, geographically varied and rich
>> > land was all we needed; we didn't need, weren't close to, and didn't want
>> > [for sheer pragmatism and comfort] to go beyond our country.
>> >
>> > A (dwindling as immigrants continue coming here) majority of USAmericans
>> > are, then, fascinatingly, a little Museum of Merry Olde England and its
>> > significant attached land bits called Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and
>> > Cornwall, as well as hundreds of little islands.
>> >
>> > So "our" humor, as distinct from "your" humour, comes from those of you
>> who
>> > came here----and mainly as opposed to those of you who stayed there:
>> > Strongly non-conforming yet conformist religionists, a sprinkle of
>> landed
>> > gentry, some renegades, near-starving displaced Scottish Highlanders, and
>> > starving Irish and Welsh.
>> >
>> > [On a related issue that I'd like to understand: Exactly who were the
>> > slavedrivers [literally] in early USAmerica?] Irish? Scottish? Welsh?
>> >
>> > Aside from the non-nuance of emailed messages, then, an English ironic
>> > statement will fly directly over an American's head but will be caught by
>> > most Brits.
>> >
>> > Trying to characterise Brit humour and American humor intrigues me.
>> Y'all's
>> > 'super-subtle' irony tends to be self- or country-deprecatory, whereas
>> > Americans' irony tends more often to be brash, in-your-face, obvious, and
>> > 'other-demeaning'. Our other immigrant-imported humor, especially from
>> the
>> > huge influx of western Europeans and middle Easterners (in the
>> > destructing-dynasties days of the mid-1800s), and much later the eastern
>> > Europeans (glasnost Russians, "revolting" Hungarians, to name just a few)
>> > give us quite different, and wonderful, wit styles. As our Asian
>> immigrants
>> > assimilate, we're getting---much too slowly, for my taste---Chinese,
>> > Japanese, Thai, and Filipino humor.
>> >
>> > End of lecture, flawed as it surely is, since it's totally unresearched
>> > (!!).
>> >
>> > And now, Dave, to the unsurnamed mysteryman, F, surely his relative
>> > obscurity's due to his humorlessness.
>> >
>> > BTW, the only witty person (your style) I regularly converse with here is
>> > the man who sells me stamps at the US Post Office branch nearby. It
>> usually
>> > takes me a few seconds to "get" which parts of what he says are wit, and
>> > which I should take as literal. <sigh> Brilliant, that one----and much
>> > appreciated by me!
>> >
>> > unKaramazatic joodles
>> >
>> >
>> > 2008/9/9 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
>> >
>> >> Judy! The F Russian novelist is (in roman letters) Fyodor of course.
>> >>
>> >> 'Chess' is one of those wee books that hit you like a rocket, it was
>> >> his last and he committed suicide a while after.
>> >>
>> >> I'm very wary of statistics: who was it made the adaptation 'There are
>> >> lies, damned lies, and statistics'?
>> >>
>> >> Best
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >> 2008/9/8 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
>> >> > Yes, JM Forster---one of the quickest aids for novel-reading [which I
>> >> > generally loathe to do, despite it having been a big hunk of my
>> >> > schooling]---does creatively simplify and clarify how to "niche"
>> novels
>> >> > rather than just pocket their chronology and inevitable lead into the
>> >> next
>> >> > generations.
>> >> > I took a Women Novelists course once, the female prof who'd decided
>> that
>> >> > there were clear gender-markings of subjects and
>> handlings-of-subjects.
>> >> As
>> >> > we ran thru the Usual Suspects of women-writ novels----unfortunately,
>> >> mostly
>> >> > the bottom-of-the-barrel ones----so that she could buttress her
>> premise,
>> >> I
>> >> > felt I'd explode if I didn't stop her.
>> >> >
>> >> > I asked her to rebut the view that Tolstoy, especially in W & P, if
>> not
>> >> AK,
>> >> > exhibited ALL of her so-called Female Novelists' Subjects and
>> Techniques.
>> >> > Don't remember a bit of her response, just felt tremendously relieved
>> >> to've
>> >> > stated My Truth. <g>
>> >> >
>> >> > In the 19th c---Englishly, at least---there was an audible frustration
>> >> > constantly emitted by successful male novelists who were angered at
>> >> readers'
>> >> > choosing female-authored novels over theirs. Odd, that.
>> >> >
>> >> > Don't know contemporary stats, but it seems for every male-written and
>> >> > male-read SF novel, there's a handy Bodice-Ripper [some quite
>> >> > sophisticated!] read by a female. I'd love to be a little mouse
>> <ahem>
>> >> > looking at the books that Educated Folk read for their amusement.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks for reminding me of _The Death of I I_, David. Haven't read it
>> >> since
>> >> > uni days, and suspect that I'd receive it altogether differently now.
>> >> >
>> >> > Have never heard of Stefan Zweig's _Chess_. Should I put it ahead of
>> all
>> >> > the Scots' novels and poetry as well as Goethe and Montaigne? Someone
>> >> > advises me that reading Proust [no, I have NOT read this much-touted
>> >> > 'madeleine-crusher'!] is not worth the wearying. Well, Dave---is it
>> >> true?
>> >> >
>> >> > I'd much rather read your begun-memoir than all the other stuff,
>> anyway.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> >
>> >> > Judy who wishes she knew the _F_ Russian novelist's name
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2008/9/8 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> >
>> >> >> Judy, yes, Tolstoy can be a bit soap-operatic, however, if you get
>> >> >> past the first three hundred pages or so of War and Peace, you get,
>> as
>> >> >> Forster said in Aspects of the Novel, 'great chords' beginning to
>> >> >> sound. On a smaller scale in 'The Death of Ivan Ilyich' a certain
>> >> >> inevitability happens, that one only normally associates with those
>> >> >> Antique Greeks, or Shakespeare at his best.
>> >> >> Or maybe Stefan Zweig's novella 'Chess' or maybe etc ... I'm sure you
>> >> >> know what I'm getting at.
>> >> >> There was also another 19th century Russkie writer, who was in some
>> >> >> ways completely barking, as we say over here, but also magnificent. I
>> >> >> think his first name began with F.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> best
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dave
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2008/9/8 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
>> >> >> > Hadn't I hesitated just _this_ much, thinking 'hey, this
>> echoes....',
>> >> >> having
>> >> >> > years ago done a respectable minor in 'Rushing Lit' at U of
>> Michigan!
>> >> >> But
>> >> >> > ease yourself, Christopher---you wrote the collapsing scaffold
>> >> POETICAL,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> > those lightweight Russian novelists/shortstorytellers hadn't the
>> >> talent
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> > distill their comparison, had they?
>> >> >> > On that subject, naturally: Who's your favourite 19th c Russian
>> >> writer?
>> >> >> > Overall, mine's Chekhov. Fun as Tolstoy is, he's too 'soap
>> >> operatic',
>> >> >> > couldnae even insinuate War into Peace in that interminable book.
>> >> >> Gogol's
>> >> >> > 'Dead Souls'---fantastic! Pushkin......hmmm......groundbreaking,
>> in
>> >> >> Russia
>> >> >> > and at that time.....but.....too much the writer of domestic
>> 'cameos',
>> >> >> > Tolstoy in poetry.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Then there's the man who can describe the 'battle' of the
>> blundering
>> >> >> sexes,
>> >> >> > the quintessential Russian writer: Lermontov. 'A Hero of Our
>> Time',
>> >> the
>> >> >> > passionate, but gently objective slivering away at our bleeding
>> >> corpses.
>> >> >> > His incisions, so blindingly felt, nevertheless don't
>> hurt.....they
>> >> >> build
>> >> >> > us new tissue [scaffolds of incipient poetry?].
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Ah yes, $$$ Casually Acquired clothing: best to buy basic jeans
>> and
>> >> >> you'll
>> >> >> > never go wrong.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Judy
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2008/9/8 Christopher C Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Many thanks but I should perhaps say that writers using scaffolds
>> >> which
>> >> >> >> are later removed has been used before by Bakhtin and was it
>> Tolstoy?
>> >> >> >> Collapsing scaffolds is more so one of my variations especially
>> when
>> >> it
>> >> >> >> comes to novel creation of worlds. Many best wishes all the same
>> and
>> >> >> >> thanks.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> PS. I have just discovered a dress code called neat casual attire,
>> >> which
>> >> >> >> appears to what got termed designer wear in my days, especially
>> since
>> >> it
>> >> >> >> cost two or three times what a business suit would.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 02:19 -0400, Judy Prince wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Love this image/analogy of yours, Christopher: "a scaffold
>> which
>> >> >> needs
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> > be removed or collapses into the text....."
>> >> >> >> > Judy
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> David Bircumshaw
>> >> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>> >> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>> >> >> The Animal Subsides
>> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> >> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> David Bircumshaw
>> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>> >> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Bircumshaw
>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>
>
--
David Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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