Is that about where you are, personally, Dave, or professional-poetically?
Godot will likely come, then.
Don't quite know why I never went a bundle on his play. Do know that some
of that cynicism bulged more beautifully and memorably, for me, in Eugene
Ionesco's play, _The Chairs_. And August Strindberg's _The Dream Play_.
[Totally Unrelated Note: I do wish you'd post more of your memoir!!!! IT
NEEDS WRITTEN {as many Scots and English--and even some northeastern
USAmericans say}!]
BTW, and back to Alison's reference to the immaculately grim short story,
'Notes of An Underground Man'......I'm thinking that the 'hero' was one of
the few folk in history to embody a schlemiel, a shlemazl, and a schmuck.
Do you Yiddish me?
Alison, if you're listening to this, since 'tis hard for me to imagine even
a shaky laugh for N of AUM, I must have you explain Australian humour to
me!! I just don't get it! <g>
Back to Birk: Love the new friend's inviting you to his funeral---a true
kindred spirit!
Best,
soba noodles
2008/9/9 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> Here's another PS for you Judy. My re-write and take on Samuel
> Beckett's joke is:
>
> 'God, the bastard, he does exist'.
>
> Now that's about where I am.
>
>
> Yrs
>
> davo
>
> 2008/9/9 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> > See, Dave, you were 'having me on', what many USAmericans would call
> > 'teasing' or 'joking'. Billions of words've been written on English wit;
> > how USAmericans don't get it and can't do it themselves. If I didn't
> > believe there was a divide in the humor [humour] department between our
> > countries, I wouldn't mentioned it here. But I find the divide
> fascinating
> > all real. The difference may be tied to our separate 'takes' on
> religion,
> > conformity, 'sociability', and word choices. Naturally, these
> differences
> > hang mostly on who were our respective forbears.
> > [A quick non-aside here and now: You write 'centre', we write 'center'.
> > Most Americans would assume that the Brit spelling is 'older', but in
> fact
> > it is 'younger' than the American spelling. Many phrases and expressions
> > used now in the USA are no longer used in the UK [UQ]. This is just one
> > 'proof' of how insular USAmerica is and has been. That's the second part
> of
> > my theory about our different humor and our ways of being sociable or
> > religious. I theorize, in a nutshell, that those differences derive from
> > who came to America [largely from your country], as well as their
> > offspring-generations who remained secluded here, geographically, for
> some
> > 500-plus years. After all, island folk (e.g., Brits, Japanese,
> > Scandinavian) are known for their resourceful "visiting" [read
> 'plundering']
> > other countries with more and different resources.
> >
> > All USAmericans needed to do was to lay claim to and wrest the entire
> > country's land from native Americans, buy land "owned" by Russia and
> France,
> > steal some from Mexico, and this immense, geographically varied and rich
> > land was all we needed; we didn't need, weren't close to, and didn't want
> > [for sheer pragmatism and comfort] to go beyond our country.
> >
> > A (dwindling as immigrants continue coming here) majority of USAmericans
> > are, then, fascinatingly, a little Museum of Merry Olde England and its
> > significant attached land bits called Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and
> > Cornwall, as well as hundreds of little islands.
> >
> > So "our" humor, as distinct from "your" humour, comes from those of you
> who
> > came here----and mainly as opposed to those of you who stayed there:
> > Strongly non-conforming yet conformist religionists, a sprinkle of
> landed
> > gentry, some renegades, near-starving displaced Scottish Highlanders, and
> > starving Irish and Welsh.
> >
> > [On a related issue that I'd like to understand: Exactly who were the
> > slavedrivers [literally] in early USAmerica?] Irish? Scottish? Welsh?
> >
> > Aside from the non-nuance of emailed messages, then, an English ironic
> > statement will fly directly over an American's head but will be caught by
> > most Brits.
> >
> > Trying to characterise Brit humour and American humor intrigues me.
> Y'all's
> > 'super-subtle' irony tends to be self- or country-deprecatory, whereas
> > Americans' irony tends more often to be brash, in-your-face, obvious, and
> > 'other-demeaning'. Our other immigrant-imported humor, especially from
> the
> > huge influx of western Europeans and middle Easterners (in the
> > destructing-dynasties days of the mid-1800s), and much later the eastern
> > Europeans (glasnost Russians, "revolting" Hungarians, to name just a few)
> > give us quite different, and wonderful, wit styles. As our Asian
> immigrants
> > assimilate, we're getting---much too slowly, for my taste---Chinese,
> > Japanese, Thai, and Filipino humor.
> >
> > End of lecture, flawed as it surely is, since it's totally unresearched
> > (!!).
> >
> > And now, Dave, to the unsurnamed mysteryman, F, surely his relative
> > obscurity's due to his humorlessness.
> >
> > BTW, the only witty person (your style) I regularly converse with here is
> > the man who sells me stamps at the US Post Office branch nearby. It
> usually
> > takes me a few seconds to "get" which parts of what he says are wit, and
> > which I should take as literal. <sigh> Brilliant, that one----and much
> > appreciated by me!
> >
> > unKaramazatic joodles
> >
> >
> > 2008/9/9 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >> Judy! The F Russian novelist is (in roman letters) Fyodor of course.
> >>
> >> 'Chess' is one of those wee books that hit you like a rocket, it was
> >> his last and he committed suicide a while after.
> >>
> >> I'm very wary of statistics: who was it made the adaptation 'There are
> >> lies, damned lies, and statistics'?
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >> 2008/9/8 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> >> > Yes, JM Forster---one of the quickest aids for novel-reading [which I
> >> > generally loathe to do, despite it having been a big hunk of my
> >> > schooling]---does creatively simplify and clarify how to "niche"
> novels
> >> > rather than just pocket their chronology and inevitable lead into the
> >> next
> >> > generations.
> >> > I took a Women Novelists course once, the female prof who'd decided
> that
> >> > there were clear gender-markings of subjects and
> handlings-of-subjects.
> >> As
> >> > we ran thru the Usual Suspects of women-writ novels----unfortunately,
> >> mostly
> >> > the bottom-of-the-barrel ones----so that she could buttress her
> premise,
> >> I
> >> > felt I'd explode if I didn't stop her.
> >> >
> >> > I asked her to rebut the view that Tolstoy, especially in W & P, if
> not
> >> AK,
> >> > exhibited ALL of her so-called Female Novelists' Subjects and
> Techniques.
> >> > Don't remember a bit of her response, just felt tremendously relieved
> >> to've
> >> > stated My Truth. <g>
> >> >
> >> > In the 19th c---Englishly, at least---there was an audible frustration
> >> > constantly emitted by successful male novelists who were angered at
> >> readers'
> >> > choosing female-authored novels over theirs. Odd, that.
> >> >
> >> > Don't know contemporary stats, but it seems for every male-written and
> >> > male-read SF novel, there's a handy Bodice-Ripper [some quite
> >> > sophisticated!] read by a female. I'd love to be a little mouse
> <ahem>
> >> > looking at the books that Educated Folk read for their amusement.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for reminding me of _The Death of I I_, David. Haven't read it
> >> since
> >> > uni days, and suspect that I'd receive it altogether differently now.
> >> >
> >> > Have never heard of Stefan Zweig's _Chess_. Should I put it ahead of
> all
> >> > the Scots' novels and poetry as well as Goethe and Montaigne? Someone
> >> > advises me that reading Proust [no, I have NOT read this much-touted
> >> > 'madeleine-crusher'!] is not worth the wearying. Well, Dave---is it
> >> true?
> >> >
> >> > I'd much rather read your begun-memoir than all the other stuff,
> anyway.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> >
> >> > Judy who wishes she knew the _F_ Russian novelist's name
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 2008/9/8 David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >
> >> >> Judy, yes, Tolstoy can be a bit soap-operatic, however, if you get
> >> >> past the first three hundred pages or so of War and Peace, you get,
> as
> >> >> Forster said in Aspects of the Novel, 'great chords' beginning to
> >> >> sound. On a smaller scale in 'The Death of Ivan Ilyich' a certain
> >> >> inevitability happens, that one only normally associates with those
> >> >> Antique Greeks, or Shakespeare at his best.
> >> >> Or maybe Stefan Zweig's novella 'Chess' or maybe etc ... I'm sure you
> >> >> know what I'm getting at.
> >> >> There was also another 19th century Russkie writer, who was in some
> >> >> ways completely barking, as we say over here, but also magnificent. I
> >> >> think his first name began with F.
> >> >>
> >> >> best
> >> >>
> >> >> Dave
> >> >>
> >> >> 2008/9/8 Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>:
> >> >> > Hadn't I hesitated just _this_ much, thinking 'hey, this
> echoes....',
> >> >> having
> >> >> > years ago done a respectable minor in 'Rushing Lit' at U of
> Michigan!
> >> >> But
> >> >> > ease yourself, Christopher---you wrote the collapsing scaffold
> >> POETICAL,
> >> >> and
> >> >> > those lightweight Russian novelists/shortstorytellers hadn't the
> >> talent
> >> >> to
> >> >> > distill their comparison, had they?
> >> >> > On that subject, naturally: Who's your favourite 19th c Russian
> >> writer?
> >> >> > Overall, mine's Chekhov. Fun as Tolstoy is, he's too 'soap
> >> operatic',
> >> >> > couldnae even insinuate War into Peace in that interminable book.
> >> >> Gogol's
> >> >> > 'Dead Souls'---fantastic! Pushkin......hmmm......groundbreaking,
> in
> >> >> Russia
> >> >> > and at that time.....but.....too much the writer of domestic
> 'cameos',
> >> >> > Tolstoy in poetry.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then there's the man who can describe the 'battle' of the
> blundering
> >> >> sexes,
> >> >> > the quintessential Russian writer: Lermontov. 'A Hero of Our
> Time',
> >> the
> >> >> > passionate, but gently objective slivering away at our bleeding
> >> corpses.
> >> >> > His incisions, so blindingly felt, nevertheless don't
> hurt.....they
> >> >> build
> >> >> > us new tissue [scaffolds of incipient poetry?].
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ah yes, $$$ Casually Acquired clothing: best to buy basic jeans
> and
> >> >> you'll
> >> >> > never go wrong.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Judy
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2008/9/8 Christopher C Jones <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Many thanks but I should perhaps say that writers using scaffolds
> >> which
> >> >> >> are later removed has been used before by Bakhtin and was it
> Tolstoy?
> >> >> >> Collapsing scaffolds is more so one of my variations especially
> when
> >> it
> >> >> >> comes to novel creation of worlds. Many best wishes all the same
> and
> >> >> >> thanks.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> PS. I have just discovered a dress code called neat casual attire,
> >> which
> >> >> >> appears to what got termed designer wear in my days, especially
> since
> >> it
> >> >> >> cost two or three times what a business suit would.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 02:19 -0400, Judy Prince wrote:
> >> >> >> > Love this image/analogy of yours, Christopher: "a scaffold
> which
> >> >> needs
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> > be removed or collapses into the text....."
> >> >> >> > Judy
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> David Bircumshaw
> >> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> >> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> >> >> The Animal Subsides
> http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> >> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Bircumshaw
> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> >> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>
|