medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On Sunday, August 10, 2008, at 1:28 pm, Jim Bugslag wrote, quoting me:
> > The boy in this configuration is usually called Triptolemos (as in the
> > image caption for the view pointed to by Diana). The image shown
> > appears to have been retouched. Here's a fairly recent view of the
> > original piece (a stele, BTW, not -- as in the image caption -- a
> > frieze) in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens:
> > http://tinyurl.com/6ar9b7 And here's a view of a copy in the Eleusis
> > Museum at Eleusis: http://tinyurl.com/59o39k Larger view:
> > http://tinyurl.com/6g65qb
> >
> > In both of those, note the wearing of many of the surfaces (e.g.
> > Triptolemos's nose, Persephone's/Kore's nose, and her right arm).
>
> John,
> Are you saying, or implying, here that the wearing was intentional,
> as, for example, in those
> parts of the image being touched by devotees?
I don't see anything in my wording quoted above that could reasonably be taken as _saying_ that the wearing was intentional. The statement calls attention to the wearing but offers no comment on how that wearing might have occurred.
Nor was I _implying_ that the wearing was intentional. My post, in response to an image posted by Diana Wright, observed that the image that she provided of the Eleusinian Triad seems to have been retouched. After my having then giving links to images of the corresponding original stele in Athens and of its copy at Eleusis, it might be thought reasonable to infer that my calling attention to the wearing visible on these related to the previous observation about the Diana-provided image's having been retouched. Anyone who clicks on the links in the sequence provided (i.e. starting with Diana's) should be able to see the differences in e.g. the nasal configurations of Triptolemos and of Persephone/Kore.
> >
> > In this particular composition Triptolemus (receiving from Demeter the
> > grain with which he will instruct mankind in agriculture) appears to
> > me more a young man (kouros) than a small boy.
>
> Well, if the Annaselbdritt did arise out of such a configuration, it
> certainly wouldn't be the only
> grain goddess imagery to characterize Christian iconography.
Yes, but did it? There's no agricultural motif in the Anna metterza (also 'Anne trinitaire' or 'Annaselbdritt') images to possibly clinch such an origin. And, in contradistinction to the Mary/Christchild images that recall Isis/Horus ones, in this case we are dealing with a compositional type that arose not in early Christianity, when Isis worship was current and when there were still lots of Isis/Horus figures to be seen, but rather -- as far as I'm aware -- in the thirteenth century, when the Eleusinian Triad had been a dead letter for many centuries.
So, were images of the Eleusinian Triad available to be viewed by Latin Christians in the thirteenth century (or in the twelfth, if the Anna metterza type turns out to be that old)? Unless they were, it would in this instance seem premature to postulate a derivation of the Christian type from the pre-Christian one.
Best again,
John Dillon
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