medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]>
> I am seeking elucidation for another VERY obscure reference in Peter
Abelard's Carmen ad Astralabium"
> lines 921-2 (Rubinghe-Bosscher edition)
> Multa Theobaldus largitur religiosis
sed, si plura rapit, sunt data rapta magis.
> Thibault makes many gifts to the religious orders,
but since he steals much, his gifts are only from what he has stolen.
> Has anyone any idea what this is about ? Can anyone identify "Thibault" ?
> He is possibly someone who was living in Anjou, the Loire Valley, or Poitou
prior to 1130. I DON'T think he was a Breton.
> The only person I know of who MIGHT fit is Thibault of Chartres, aka
Thibault the Trickster, Count of Blois, 945-974. But I suspect he is too early
and does not seem to be quite right.
only one of the Thibaudians (the first one, at least at Blois) was officially
known as "le Tricheur," and since your Petie is speaking of him in the present
tense, this particular Trickster is a bit too early for his reference, having
inconviently died in 975.
i believe that the best (secondary) source for him might remain this Oldie
Lex, Léonce (1859-1926)
Eudes, comte de Blois, de Tours, de Chartres, de Troyes et de Meaux
(995-1037), et Thibaud, son frère (995-1004)
Troyes: impr. de Dufour-Bouquot, 1892
200 pp.
available from Gallica
http://gallica.bnf.fr/Catalogue/noticesInd/FRBNF30812830.htm
André-Yves is certainly right (assuming we're looking for a contemporary of
P.A.) and Thibault IV (of Blois/Chartres/Troyes/Champagne) is our guy, and the
site he gave us
>http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CENTRAL%20FRANCE.htm#_Toc148934728
looks to be pretty good one (for a site on The Innernets), to me.
for the Thibaudians at Chartres/Blois generally, August Molinier's
introduction to his edition of the necrologies of the Chartres diocese
Obituaires de la province de Sens... Tome II, Diocèse de Chartres...publié
par M. Auguste Molinier
(Recueil des historiens de la France. Obituaires ; I-IV)
Paris : Impr. Nationale
is still useful.
available on Gallica
http://gallica.bnf.fr/document?O=N005905
(you only need to "telecharger" the first 50 pages)
>the Paraclete was on de Blois land I think
well, only in the sense that, although the Moon is smaller than the Earth, it
is Farther Away.
and in so far as the County of Champagne might be spoken of as being on "Blois
land" --i.e., Teddy, Count of Blois/Chartres, was also Count of Champagne
(after 1125, i think).
you might be on safer ground to say that it was on "Thibaudian land" (speaking
of the dynasty).
>and Henri de Blois was Heloise's patron at one time.
perhaps --but that's your bailiwick, not mine.
"Henry of Blois," of course, wasn't a Count of Bois(/Chartres/Champagne), but
"only" the fourth (surviving son of Count Stephen-Henry of Blois/Chartres (d.
1102) and the formidable Countess Adela, "daughter of the Most Glorious King
of the Angles, William" (as she always was at pains to style herself
consistently in her charters).
Henry's career was very much centered in England (B. of Winchester, etc.).
what role (if any) he might have had in patronizing P.A. is something i'll be
glad to wait until your book appears to find out.
>is there ANY evidence for T 4 de Blois being a plunderer of churches as well
as a founder of them ? Or any similar pair of attributes ?
seems like that rings a bell, but i can't think of any specifics and haven't
yet gotten around to doing the kind of work on Teddy 4 which i need to do --he
is often attributed with the reform of the collegial of St. Mary Magdelein of
Chateaudun (south of Chartres) in the 1130s, but i am certain that this is
without any documentary foundation whatever and am almost certain that he
played no (positive) role in the situation at all.
so, i'll have to do some more spadework on Ted at some point in my young
career, but can't do it now.
for your interest, if you want an overview of the general political background
in Champagne, you might take a look at
Michel Bur, La formation du comté de Champagne: v. 950-v. 1150. (Mémoires
des Annales de l'Est, no. 54)
Nancy: Université de Nancy II, 1977. 573 pp.
meanwhile, i'd just point out the obvious, viz., that saying stuff like
> Multa Theobaldus largitur religiosis
sed, si plura rapit, sunt data rapta magis.
> (Thibault makes many gifts to the religious orders,
but since he steals much, his gifts are only from what he has stolen.)
suggests a "patronage" which has Gone South (as we now say), Big Time.
"rapit..rapta" ain't the kind of language which one uses to endear oneself to
the Rich & Powerful, seems to me.
(say, what do you do with "magis" there? how about: "...since he steals much,
his gifts are much stolen"?)
among P.A.'s supporters was, of course, Bishop Godfrey of Chartres, a very
important fellow in the France of the 2nd quarter of c. 12.
you may not have seen this mini-biography of him published recently
Lindy Grant, “Geoffrey of Lèves, Bishop of Chartres: Famous Wheeler and
Dealer in Secular Business,” in Rolf Grosse, ed., Suger en question: Regards
croisés sur Saint-Denis. (Pariser Historische Studien, Band 68) Munich, 2004.
pp. 45-56.
which i have a fairly decent OCR copy of and could send to you --or anyone
else-- if you like.
Grant's _Abbot Suger of St.-Denis: church and state in early twelfth-century
France_ (New York, 1998)
is also of use (Grant is primarily an art hysterian, but this is mostly a
historical study).
i haven't seen her latest essay,
“Arnulf’s mentor: Geoffrey de Lèves, bishop of Chartres,”
in David Bates, Julia Crick and Sarah Hamilton, eds., Writing Medieval
Biography, 750-1250: Essays in Honour of Professor Frank Barlow.
Woodbridge, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 2006, pp. 173-184.
[Discusses the time spent by Arnulf of Lisieux in the household of Geoffrey of
Chartres, looking at Geoffrey’s cultural importance and the effect his time
at Chartres might have had on Arnold]
an important fellow, was Godfrey of Leves.
after all, he reformed the collegial of Chateaudun, amongst other things.
> Someone off line has suggested it might be a reference to a folk tale -
similar to Reynard the Fox ?? In the R. sequence that I have read Tybalt is
the Cat and is yet another victim of Reynard's trickery, but perhaps there is
an alternative sequence of tales ?
you seem to have been misled into this ditch by your "Thibaud the Trickster"
mare's nest.
c
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