Dave fountain of knowledge is it true that the aborigines are sending them
all back to blighty???
P the confused
-----Original Message-----
From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
Sent: 27 May 2008 09:36
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Working Class v Middle Class (was Re: New beats (???))
I was being ironical when I said the British working-class had been
exported to Australia, Nathan. There isn't a 'your working class' in
Britain for me to imagine transplanted, as I'm working-class British
myself, it isn't a question of a group that is 'other' to me.
And, of course, as many have observed, I no longer exist. I even find
myself agreeing with it at times.
Yes, in Australia I really noticed the simultaneous presence of a
strongly demotic popular social culture and the very armed presence of
authority. A highly authoritarian populist place, yes?
2008/5/26 Nathan Hondros <[log in to unmask]>:
> It is a strange mix here. Instead of class, we have "anti-intellectualism"
> on one side and "elites" on the other. But we sure have race, and race
> riots. And God help you if you're a non-english speaking migrant,
political
> refugee or asylum seeker, that is if you make it through a decade of
> "detention".
> I've just returned from Europe and have realised that we are also a Police
> State, with armed officers on almost every corner and governments ever
ready
> to introduce knee jerk draconian legislation; there is a penalty for
> everything. We're proud we're not Americans, but want to be just as
wealthy,
> and I wonder sometimes whether our cultural life is as rich or as diverse.
> But the weather's great. There are lots of other good things as well,
> including the affable poets. And quaffable wine. Not to mention the
seafood.
> And the beaches, that is if you can keep out of the way of the coppers.
>
> Oh, if we have your working class, you have all our newspaper barons and
> pissed students on holiday. I know who's better off!
>
>
> On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 7:05 PM, David Bircumshaw
<[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> >But I live in Australia and we decided not to have class! Ha.<
>>
>> I noticed that when I was there five years ago. Casinos and slot
>> machines instead isn't it?
>>
>> Seriously, what I did like was the non-class ambience of poetry events
>> in Melbourne. Curious it all is: armed police checking tickets on
>> trains and affable poets. Cultureless, in some ways, and lots of
>> people who are into poetry because they enjoy it. Funny old world we
>> all live in.
>>
>> Very British working-class too, there in the Pacific. Perhaps that's
>> the answer to the question: where have the Brit working class gone?
>> Australia.
>>
>> Watching the Bill on tv. (It was on every night when I was there)
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> 2008/5/26 Nathan Hondros <[log in to unmask]>:
>> > Median income may be a more useful statistic. For the UK, I found a
>> > statistic from the 2007 Annual Survey of hours and Earnings which put
the
>> > median at £23764 per annum (for the year ending April 2007). So exactly
>> one
>> > half of all full time employees in the UK earned less than that.
>> >
>> > As an aside, the median for men was £25896 per annum and the median for
>> > women was £20488 per annum. The top 10% of the earning distribution
>> earned
>> > more than £47112.
>> >
>> > But I live in Australia and we decided not to have class! Ha.
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 4:13 PM, David Bircumshaw <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yes, I didn't use the term 'working-class' but did use 'middle-class'
>> >> as a descriptor of the narrative in the Guardian, mainly because I
>> >> couldn't think of any other way to describe it.
>> >> Pace Christopher's post, what has happened in Britain is that an
>> >> increasing amount of people think of themselves as 'middle class' or
>> >> something effectively the same, while the reality is that other than
>> >> in China and India the middle classes (in income terms) have been
>> >> shrinking in numbers throughout the developed and developing economies
>> >> while the wealth of the super-rich has been increasing.
>> >> The supposed average wage in Britain is now roughly £30,000 per annum
>> >> yet the overwhelming majority of those in work earn nothing like that.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2008/5/26 Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>:
>> >> > Both tories and labour are after the "old voters" when they play the
>> >> class
>> >> > card - people aged 80 who voted for the one party all their lives.
>> >> > Sally Evans
>> >> > http://www.poetryscotland.co.uk
>> >> > http://groups.msn.com/desktopsallye
>> >> > http://www.myspace.com/poetsallyevans
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Walker" <
>> >> [log in to unmask]>
>> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 1:12 AM
>> >> > Subject: Working Class v Middle Class (was Re: New beats (???))
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> <snip>
>> >> >> Anybody out there willing to define, describe---specify---wot
>> "working"
>> >> >> class means to them, to any of us, to UK'ers, to USAmericans, to
>> >> >> Australians, to Italians, to Finns? [JP]
>> >> >> <snip>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My serious and considered view is that in Britain 'working class'
is
>> now
>> >> >> almost entirely a polemical term, when it isn't just an item of
false
>> >> >> consciousness. With Britain's two main political parties now firmly
>> and
>> >> >> indistinguishably neo-liberal in practice if not in preaching, both
>> >> >> (though
>> >> >> most commonly New Labour because of the history of the party it
>> >> destroyed)
>> >> >> play the *Working Class* card, albeit in different ways, because
they
>> >> know
>> >> >> it induces reactions. And *affect* is what is wanted rather than
>> (say)
>> >> >> change.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But it was always a baggy term, inclusive both of those retaining
>> >> >> jealously
>> >> >> guarded skills and those progressively deskilled through
automation.
>> >> Now,
>> >> >> like 'ethnically British', a card also used by New Labour ('British
>> jobs
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> British workers'), it asserts something about origins in a rather
>> >> >> delimiting
>> >> >> way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Although conventional British wisdom holds that the 'middle class'
is
>> >> >> expanding, I think that this term too now means extremely little.
On
>> the
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> hand freelance work of various sorts (outsourcing, agency working,
>> what
>> >> is
>> >> >> often figleafed as 'consultancy' and so forth) has blurred the
>> >> distinction
>> >> >> between the two erstwhile classes both in terms of economic
>> relationship
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> an employer and in terms of overall wealth. On the other the shift
>> >> towards
>> >> >> *immaterial labour* has increasingly deskilled the 'middle class'
>> >> >> professional in quite fundamental ways.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Once again the curious result of all this is that political
arguments
>> in
>> >> >> Britain (a sort of 'immaterial labour' in itself) are now not about
>> >> social
>> >> >> realities but are matters of pure presentation. So the
>> 'precaritization'
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> great chunks of the former 'middle class' goes more or less
>> undiscussed
>> >> >> whilst the local benefit which some members of the former 'working
>> >> class'
>> >> >> have undoubtedly received as a side effect of this process is
>> frequently
>> >> >> presented as upward class mobility, which is something it is not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> CW
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 'Life is too precious to spend it with important people.'
>> >> >> (Harry Partch)
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> David Bircumshaw
>> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>> >> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://nathanhondros.blogspot.com
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> David Bircumshaw
>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://nathanhondros.blogspot.com
>
--
David Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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