Would they were here, Patrick, would they were. As Nathan indicated
they tend to send us the ones they want rid of.
They'd have a hard job finding blighty though: I think that went down
with the Hood.
2008/5/27 Patrick McManus <[log in to unmask]>:
> Dave fountain of knowledge is it true that the aborigines are sending them
> all back to blighty???
> P the confused
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of David Bircumshaw
> Sent: 27 May 2008 09:36
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Working Class v Middle Class (was Re: New beats (???))
>
> I was being ironical when I said the British working-class had been
> exported to Australia, Nathan. There isn't a 'your working class' in
> Britain for me to imagine transplanted, as I'm working-class British
> myself, it isn't a question of a group that is 'other' to me.
> And, of course, as many have observed, I no longer exist. I even find
> myself agreeing with it at times.
> Yes, in Australia I really noticed the simultaneous presence of a
> strongly demotic popular social culture and the very armed presence of
> authority. A highly authoritarian populist place, yes?
>
> 2008/5/26 Nathan Hondros <[log in to unmask]>:
>> It is a strange mix here. Instead of class, we have "anti-intellectualism"
>> on one side and "elites" on the other. But we sure have race, and race
>> riots. And God help you if you're a non-english speaking migrant,
> political
>> refugee or asylum seeker, that is if you make it through a decade of
>> "detention".
>> I've just returned from Europe and have realised that we are also a Police
>> State, with armed officers on almost every corner and governments ever
> ready
>> to introduce knee jerk draconian legislation; there is a penalty for
>> everything. We're proud we're not Americans, but want to be just as
> wealthy,
>> and I wonder sometimes whether our cultural life is as rich or as diverse.
>> But the weather's great. There are lots of other good things as well,
>> including the affable poets. And quaffable wine. Not to mention the
> seafood.
>> And the beaches, that is if you can keep out of the way of the coppers.
>>
>> Oh, if we have your working class, you have all our newspaper barons and
>> pissed students on holiday. I know who's better off!
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 7:05 PM, David Bircumshaw
> <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >But I live in Australia and we decided not to have class! Ha.<
>>>
>>> I noticed that when I was there five years ago. Casinos and slot
>>> machines instead isn't it?
>>>
>>> Seriously, what I did like was the non-class ambience of poetry events
>>> in Melbourne. Curious it all is: armed police checking tickets on
>>> trains and affable poets. Cultureless, in some ways, and lots of
>>> people who are into poetry because they enjoy it. Funny old world we
>>> all live in.
>>>
>>> Very British working-class too, there in the Pacific. Perhaps that's
>>> the answer to the question: where have the Brit working class gone?
>>> Australia.
>>>
>>> Watching the Bill on tv. (It was on every night when I was there)
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> 2008/5/26 Nathan Hondros <[log in to unmask]>:
>>> > Median income may be a more useful statistic. For the UK, I found a
>>> > statistic from the 2007 Annual Survey of hours and Earnings which put
> the
>>> > median at £23764 per annum (for the year ending April 2007). So exactly
>>> one
>>> > half of all full time employees in the UK earned less than that.
>>> >
>>> > As an aside, the median for men was £25896 per annum and the median for
>>> > women was £20488 per annum. The top 10% of the earning distribution
>>> earned
>>> > more than £47112.
>>> >
>>> > But I live in Australia and we decided not to have class! Ha.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 4:13 PM, David Bircumshaw <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Yes, I didn't use the term 'working-class' but did use 'middle-class'
>>> >> as a descriptor of the narrative in the Guardian, mainly because I
>>> >> couldn't think of any other way to describe it.
>>> >> Pace Christopher's post, what has happened in Britain is that an
>>> >> increasing amount of people think of themselves as 'middle class' or
>>> >> something effectively the same, while the reality is that other than
>>> >> in China and India the middle classes (in income terms) have been
>>> >> shrinking in numbers throughout the developed and developing economies
>>> >> while the wealth of the super-rich has been increasing.
>>> >> The supposed average wage in Britain is now roughly £30,000 per annum
>>> >> yet the overwhelming majority of those in work earn nothing like that.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> 2008/5/26 Sally Evans <[log in to unmask]>:
>>> >> > Both tories and labour are after the "old voters" when they play the
>>> >> class
>>> >> > card - people aged 80 who voted for the one party all their lives.
>>> >> > Sally Evans
>>> >> > http://www.poetryscotland.co.uk
>>> >> > http://groups.msn.com/desktopsallye
>>> >> > http://www.myspace.com/poetsallyevans
>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Walker" <
>>> >> [log in to unmask]>
>>> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> >> > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 1:12 AM
>>> >> > Subject: Working Class v Middle Class (was Re: New beats (???))
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> <snip>
>>> >> >> Anybody out there willing to define, describe---specify---wot
>>> "working"
>>> >> >> class means to them, to any of us, to UK'ers, to USAmericans, to
>>> >> >> Australians, to Italians, to Finns? [JP]
>>> >> >> <snip>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> My serious and considered view is that in Britain 'working class'
> is
>>> now
>>> >> >> almost entirely a polemical term, when it isn't just an item of
> false
>>> >> >> consciousness. With Britain's two main political parties now firmly
>>> and
>>> >> >> indistinguishably neo-liberal in practice if not in preaching, both
>>> >> >> (though
>>> >> >> most commonly New Labour because of the history of the party it
>>> >> destroyed)
>>> >> >> play the *Working Class* card, albeit in different ways, because
> they
>>> >> know
>>> >> >> it induces reactions. And *affect* is what is wanted rather than
>>> (say)
>>> >> >> change.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> But it was always a baggy term, inclusive both of those retaining
>>> >> >> jealously
>>> >> >> guarded skills and those progressively deskilled through
> automation.
>>> >> Now,
>>> >> >> like 'ethnically British', a card also used by New Labour ('British
>>> jobs
>>> >> >> for
>>> >> >> British workers'), it asserts something about origins in a rather
>>> >> >> delimiting
>>> >> >> way.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Although conventional British wisdom holds that the 'middle class'
> is
>>> >> >> expanding, I think that this term too now means extremely little.
> On
>>> the
>>> >> >> one
>>> >> >> hand freelance work of various sorts (outsourcing, agency working,
>>> what
>>> >> is
>>> >> >> often figleafed as 'consultancy' and so forth) has blurred the
>>> >> distinction
>>> >> >> between the two erstwhile classes both in terms of economic
>>> relationship
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> an employer and in terms of overall wealth. On the other the shift
>>> >> towards
>>> >> >> *immaterial labour* has increasingly deskilled the 'middle class'
>>> >> >> professional in quite fundamental ways.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Once again the curious result of all this is that political
> arguments
>>> in
>>> >> >> Britain (a sort of 'immaterial labour' in itself) are now not about
>>> >> social
>>> >> >> realities but are matters of pure presentation. So the
>>> 'precaritization'
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >> great chunks of the former 'middle class' goes more or less
>>> undiscussed
>>> >> >> whilst the local benefit which some members of the former 'working
>>> >> class'
>>> >> >> have undoubtedly received as a side effect of this process is
>>> frequently
>>> >> >> presented as upward class mobility, which is something it is not.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> CW
>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 'Life is too precious to spend it with important people.'
>>> >> >> (Harry Partch)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> David Bircumshaw
>>> >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>>> >> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>>> >> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>> >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > http://nathanhondros.blogspot.com
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Bircumshaw
>>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
>>> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
>>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
>>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://nathanhondros.blogspot.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> David Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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>
--
David Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.co.uk
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