medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Touch your genitals!?
Stephen, I've been an Orthodox priest just over 30 years and I never
noticed anybody with a hand on their penis or vagina! Honestly, it's not
the sort of thing you would overlook!
Fr Ambrose
(Russian Orthodox)
---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Morris" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> As an Orthodox, when taught to make the signof the
> Cross, I was told to touch
>
> forehead-stomach/genitals-right shoulder-heart/left
> shoulder.
>
> This is because "Christ descended from the Father
> [forehead] into the womb of the Virgin
> [stomach/genitals] and to hell before ascending again
> to the right hand of the Father [right shoulder] from
> whence he sent the Holy Spirit into our hearts
> [heart/laft shoulder]."
>
> I don't know how old this explication is, but I've
> always liked it.
>
> Stephen
>
> --- "George R. Hoelzeman" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> > religion and culture
> >
> > Here's what I can offer:
> >
> > I remember reading something from Pope Innocent III
> > back when I was in seminary in which the pope
> > offered instruction on making the sign of the cross.
> >
> > Interestingly, if I remember correctly, Innocent's
> > instructions were identical to the current
> > Eastern/Orthodox practice. One of my professors
> > postulated that
> > laypeople, not having access to Innocent's
> > instructions, followed the gesture made by the
> > priest blessing, in which case the gesture was
> > mirrored.
> > Eventually, this mirrored gesture became the
> > standard.
> >
> > I've no idea where the instruction from Innocent
> > might be found, and I have my doubts about the
> > anecdote concerning the priest's gesture.
> >
> > That having been said, the Orthodox/Eastern
> > Catholics also hold their hand with thumb, fore and
> > index finger joined (Trinity) and ring finger/pinky
> > turned
> > into the palm (2 natures in one person of Christ).
> > I am not sure that ALL Orthodox or Eastern Catholics
> > do, but that's where I picked up the gesture.
> >
> > "Back in the day" there were pious reflections
> > written on the manner in which one makes the sign of
> > the Cross. I've read both Roman and Eastern
> > writings
> > in this regard. If I can find some real references,
> > I'll post them.
> >
> > Perhaps someone else will have something more
> > scholarly on the subject.
> >
> > George the Less (curiouser and curiouser)
> >
> > On Wed, 14 May 2008 13:36:49 -0700, Chris Laning
> > wrote:
> >
> > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and culture
> >
> > >An interesting question came up in a discussion I
> > had recently, and I thought someone here might be
> > able to point me toward some resources.
> >
> > >The question is, what do we know about exactly
> > _how_ someone in, for instance, England of the 1480s
> > would have gone about the sequence of
> > gestures we call "making the sign of the cross" --
> > and how do we know it? And under what circumstances
> > would they do it?
> >
> > >There seems to be plenty of modern anecdotal
> > evidence (mostly people saying "it's always been
> > done this way") but I haven't the least idea where
> > to start
> > looking for actual source material. Pointers toward
> > where to find this sort of thing would be much
> > appreciated.
> >
> > >I suspect it's one of those things that
> > historically, nobody bothered to write down because
> > everyone knew it. (I'm sure we all have times when
> > we wish we
> > could joggle our ancestors' elbows and whisper,
> > "Write it down, dammit!" )
> >
> > >I'm referring here specifically to the sequence of
> > gestures used in blessing _oneself_ -- not the
> > gesture someone like a priest might use when
> > invoking
> > blessing upon someone or something else.
> >
> > >I do know that in modern times it's not necessarily
> > the same in all cultures -- I seem to recall that in
> > the Eastern Christian traditions the right shoulder
> > is
> > touched before the left, while in the West it's more
> > often the reverse. I've seen people from Hispanic
> > cultures kiss their thumbnail at the end of the
> > sequence. But that's about all the information I
> > presently have.
> >
> > >Some of the detail questions I'd love to find
> > answers to include: which hand makes the gesture,
> > and if not the whole hand, which fingers? What parts
> > of
> > the body are touched and in what sequence? What
> > words are said (to oneself or aloud) while the
> > gesture is being made? Is there more than one
> > version
> > common at a particular time and place?
> >
> > >And on what occasions is the sign made? I know
> > (because I see it all the time) that modern Roman
> > Catholics routinely make the sign of the cross at
> > the
> > beginning and end of an interval of prayer. I seem
> > to recall that "traditionally" it used to be common
> > to make the sign when the dead are mentioned, or as
> > a
> > quick ritual prayer against harm. But finding these
> > things out about a particular time and place in
> > history seems to be much more difficult.
> >
> > >The immediate occasion where this came up -- just
> > for context -- was in discussing a passage from _The
> > Babees Book_ that describes grace before and
> > after meals. The edition we were looking at was at
> > Google books, and I notice that at the head of the
> > "Latin Graces" section it says this is from the
> > Balliol
> > MS. 354, leaf 2 -- which I don't know anything
> > about, including the date. The sign of the cross is
> > not mentioned anywhere in the process -- but it's
> > not clear
> > whether that's because it wasn't used (for instance,
> > if this text dates to after the Reformation, in
> > which case what's "Ave Regina Caelorum" doing in
> > there at
> > Easter?), or because everyone knew when and how to
> > do it so no one wrote it down.
> >
> > >The Google books link (watch the wrap...):
> >
>
><http://books.google.com/books?id=3X0NAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+B
abees+Book:+Aristotle%
> > 27s+A+B+C,+Urbanitatis,
> > +Stans+Puer+Ad+Mensam#PPA382,M1>
> >
> > >(BTW, even the grace before meals in "ordinary
> > time" given here seems to be an extraordinary
> > mishmash of texts. I was quite startled to see the
> > "Kyrie
> > Eleison" in the middle of it!)
> >
> >
> >____________________________________________________________
> > >0 Chris Laning
> > >| <[log in to unmask]>
> > >+ Davis, California
> > >http://paternoster-row.org -
> > http://paternosters.blogspot.com
> >
> >____________________________________________________________
> >
> >
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