medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Henk 't Jong <[log in to unmask]>
> You wrote:
>>as i implied before, if you've got a family with the moniker "malesherbes"
it's hard to see how they did *not* use that as their emblem during battle.
> I'm afraid it did not work like that. People, but especially knights, had
all kinds of names and nicknames (and maybe cognomens) but that almost never
resulted in the image suggested by this name being included in a coat of arms:
these usually consisted of different numbers and kinds of stripes, animals
like lions, birds like eagles etc. The kind of devices clans or families used,
usually animals or plants, did not make into shields or even crests. They kept
being used as separate signs until late in the early modern times (like in
Scotland). So no: plantsymbols were not heraldry and so weren't used as
cognizances in battle.
nice to have such a Definitive Opine on a topic for which, to the best of my
knowledge (and i've not visited the matter in over 35 years, so the Field has
probably Moved On, Without Me), we really have no evidence whatever --i speak
of the 11th-12th c. Chartrain and neighboring regions.
as to your assertion that "plantsymbols were not heraldry and so weren't used
as cognizances in battle," alls i know is what i recently read, viz.:
"the only plants/flowers that are used in early heraldry, by which I mean
12-13th c, are the cinquefoil (later refined into a rose) and the fleur de lis
(but this is a rather late term for this charge; the symbol might have meant
something altogether different originally)."
it might have.
or might not.
i do know of fleurs-de-lis found on sculpted capitals in at least one *royal*
collegial abbey (St. Mary of Etampes, early decades of c. 12).
of course, it might be argued, this is not "heraldry" --but, given the fact
that you seem to be making a distinction between "the kind of devices clans
or families used" [*where* or on **what**??] and those found on "shields or
even crests" *is* there any "heraldry" in this period/region at this time?
what, is it just a coincidence that a building owned by and being constructed
under the patronage of the King happened to have appearances of [what turned
out to be] the Primary "device" of his family?
>For instance: while the (Anglo-)Norman family of the counts of Anjou called
Plantagenet has been nicknamed (or cog-named?) after the broomplant, it was
never used on a heraldic shield.
but might well have been used as a cognizance in battle.
the family in question --the Chenards/Canards of Louville-en-Beauce-- were not
going to rate Lions, or Eagles, or even Roses.
these guys were just minor castelains, apparently Dope Dealers to the crew of
the murderous Viscounts of Chartres/Lords of Le Puiset, helping their lords
out in their systematic and on-going Pillage of the lands of St. Mary, St.
John and St. Peter of Chartres, St. Denis-en-France and St. Benedict of Fleury
whenever the opportunity arose, generally Raping and Ripping off whatever
wasn't Nailed Down.
btw, if i might return to something at least in the same universe as the
original question which started this errant string, i recently came across
this interesting item:
Michel Lauwers, ed., Guerriers et moines: conversion et sainteté
aristocratiques dans l'occident médiéval, IXe-XIIe siècle. Antibes: APDCA,
Association pour la promotion et la diffusion des connaissances
archéologiques, 2002.
and have OCRed this entry
Dominique Iogna-Prat, “Évrard de Breteuil et son double morphologie de la
conversion en milieu aristocratique (v. 1070-v. 1120),” in Michel Lauwers,
ed., Guerriers et moines: conversion et sainteté aristocratiques dans
l'occident médiéval, IXe-XIIe siècle (Antibes: APDCA, Association pour la
promotion et la diffusion des connaissances archéologiques, 2002), pp.
537-557.
which i'd be happy to send to anyone who might be interested in these Obscure
& Arcane matters.
alas, no mention of anyone taking a New Name, that i can see at a glance.
c
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|