medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Christopher Crockett wrote:
> From: Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
>> John Briggs wrote:
>>> Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>>>
>>>> but it was also HotBed Central of the Reform Movement, at least
>>>> that which was aimed at the "secular" canons of cathedral chapters and
>>>> collegial abbeys.
>>>
>>> Collegial abbeys?
>>
>> Collegiate churches?
>
> so nice to have an attentive audience.
>
>
> COLLEGIAL, a.
>
> 1. Of the nature of, or constituted as, a college. collegial church: =
> collegiate church.
> (OED)
Not the same as an abbey (or a monastery).
> i call these institutions of royal foundation "abbeys," but suppose,
> technically, should have said "monasteries," because that's the way
> Henry refers to the, in a charter just before he entered Clairvaux
> (and which i quoted --in English-- earlier, but no one was reading
> attentively, apparently):
>
> Henricus frater illustris Ludovici, Dei gratia Francorum regis et
> ducis Aquitanorum, et Dei permissione abbas regalium abbatiarum...
>
> o.k., "collegial/collegiate monasteries," then.
No, no...
> but, otOh, he does style himself "abbot"
>
> ABBOT, n.
>
> 1. The head or superior of an abbey.
Yes, we know that.
> so, go figger.
No, the point we are querying is you calling things which are (or appear to
be) abbeys, "collegiate churches".
Collegiate churches are different. Not to put too fine a point on it, they
are not monastic.
John Briggs
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