medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I also saw the BBC show. I agree with George about (c). The face cloth is
identified with a cloth in Spain that has, apparently, got reliable
provenance back to the fifth century. The claim was made that stains on the
face cloth match stains on the shroud if wrapped round a head shape
together. Both have type AB blood. They also suggested that the shroud may
be identified with a relic that was described as being in Constantinople in
the late twelfth century - the description is, apparently, newly discovered.
It was also suggested that the 'man of sorrows' iconography was based on
this relic after it was lost from Constantinople - I was not convinced by
this as, although the 'man of sorrows' has the same amount of torso showing
as is on the unfolded part of the shroud, the head on those examples shown
to us was always to one side where the shroud's head is erect.
Rosemary
----- Original Message -----
From: "George FERZOCO" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Shroud of Turin
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> The show tried to make the point that there were:
>
> a) the 'napkin' (or face cloth, or Veronica)
> b) the main shroud
> c) a strip of cloth used to bind closely the shroud (and underlying
> napkin) to the body
>
> In what was, for me, the weakest part of the hypotheses presented, the
> show made the claim that c) was later stitched to the side of b)
>
> George
>
> --
> George FERZOCO
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> On 24 Mar 2008, at 15:52, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> From: "George R. Hoelzeman" <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>
>>> In a related vein, how reliable is the description of the burial cloths
>>> in
>> the Gospel of John
>>
>> not an expert on John, obviously, but it occurred to me in your previous
>> post,
>> George, that his description of the burial cloths is not particularly
>> consistent with the Image on the Shroud:
>>
>> 20:6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he
>> saw the
>> linen cloths lying,
>> 20:7 and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the
>> linen
>> cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.
>>
>> clearly, two "cloths," one for the head (i.e., presumably, over the
>> face).
>>
>> the fact that the cloths were "in a pile" is (as we see it always
>> portrayed in
>> medieval art) evidence of the Resurrection, and has no bearing on the
>> Image on
>> the Shroud.
>>
>> the Man on the Shroud was, apparently, placed on one end of the spread
>> cloth,
>> the other end being folded over the reclining body, from the head down
>> to the
>> feet.
>>
>> this doesn't preclude the existence of a "napkin" for the face/ head,
>> though
>> there is no trace of suchlike an object on the Image.
>>
>> which is, of course, entirely irrevelent, since any Art Historian worth
>> her
>> psalt can see immediately that the Image on the Shroud is just another
>> one of
>> your standard, garden-variety 14th c. French Paintings.
>>
>> (right, Jim?)
>>
>>> and how would 1st cento burial cloths be arranged with head cloth and
>>> body
>> wrappings?
>>
>> who knows?
>>
>> not i.
>>
>> c
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:09:28 -0400, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>
>>>> the BBC programme will, obviously, be close to worthless --even if
>> actually
>>>> seen in GB.
>>>
>>>> this page
>>>
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm
>>>
>>>> explains that the programme is based on a serious scholarly article
>> published
>>>> in the journal Thermochimica Acta, familiar to us all.
>
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