medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The explanation that I heard growing up about why John mentions the cloths
is that grave-robbers were unlikely to steal the body, remove the cloths,
and neatly fold them, but would probably have taken the cloths with the
corpse or else left the cloths in a heap. So that when John (or whoever
else might be the disciple in question) saw the cloths, he didn't understand
why they were lying their neatly. It's an explanation that's always made
sense to me, although it's certainly not infallible proof.
Andrew E. Larsen
On 3/24/08 11:03 AM, "George R. Hoelzeman" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Right - that's precisely my question. . . if the description in John is
> accurate (which may be an open question, I dunno) then the there are some
> issues with
> the shroud itself. This, in my mind, creates a separate anomaly: The
> medievals would certainly have been aware of the inconsistencies between the
> Johannine account and the Turin shroud . . . as evidenced by your reference to
> period painting.
>
> So, why would a forger create something so obviously at variance with the
> Gospel account, and even more, why would it gain credence?
>
> Oh, wait . . . silly me! I live in Arkansas. We see that sort of thing every
> day ;-))
>
> Still, I'm curious about several things. Why does John even mention the
> cloths? I'm wondering if there is something else going on here. . . maybe I
> need to
> drag out some other references. . .
>
> George (increasing inclined to exert some effort)
>
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:52:33 -0400, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>> From: "George R. Hoelzeman" <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>>> In a related vein, how reliable is the description of the burial cloths in
>> the Gospel of John
>
>> not an expert on John, obviously, but it occurred to me in your previous
>> post,
>> George, that his description of the burial cloths is not particularly
>> consistent with the Image on the Shroud:
>
>> 20:6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the
>> linen cloths lying,
>> 20:7 and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen
>> cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.
>
>> clearly, two "cloths," one for the head (i.e., presumably, over the face).
>
>> the fact that the cloths were "in a pile" is (as we see it always portrayed
>> in
>> medieval art) evidence of the Resurrection, and has no bearing on the Image
>> on
>> the Shroud.
>
>> the Man on the Shroud was, apparently, placed on one end of the spread cloth,
>> the other end being folded over the reclining body, from the head down to the
>> feet.
>
>> this doesn't preclude the existence of a "napkin" for the face/head, though
>> there is no trace of suchlike an object on the Image.
>
>> which is, of course, entirely irrevelent, since any Art Historian worth her
>> psalt can see immediately that the Image on the Shroud is just another one of
>> your standard, garden-variety 14th c. French Paintings.
>
>> (right, Jim?)
>
>>> and how would 1st cento burial cloths be arranged with head cloth and body
>> wrappings?
>
>> who knows?
>
>> not i.
>
>> c
>
>
>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:09:28 -0400, Christopher Crockett wrote:
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>
>>>> the BBC programme will, obviously, be close to worthless --even if
>> actually
>>>> seen in GB.
>>>
>>>> this page
>>>
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm
>>>
>>>> explains that the programme is based on a serious scholarly article
>> published
>>>> in the journal Thermochimica Acta, familiar to us all.
>>>
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