Ken

Coincidentally I read Geoff's paper at that conference in his absence -
which is fun getting to sound intelligent without doing any work -
having a background in Indology helps ; )
I am a huge fan of Geoff's work but wasn't too sure how far he wanted to 
go with that thesis -
maybe he will say - i thought maybe he was suggesting that the more you 
look at Tantra
(or more properly Kaula tradition) the more it comes to resemble the 
European 'Sabbatic' cult - see for example
'The Kiss of the Yogini' where kaulas gather in circles in forest groves 
to call down female demonic spirits for a
'sabbatic' feast. - it might underline the fact that Tantrik India is in 
fact a late classical culture that participates more in international 
ritual culture than was previously realised. In other words they both 
come from a common source ??

'Love and do what you will'

mogg




> It would therefore be tedious and unnecessary to reprise such 
> observations here by offering up a checklist. But two areas worth 
> re-visiting briefly are Tantra and Masonry. Geoffrey Samuel in his 
> paper for Nature Religion Today (J.Pearson et al, eds 1998),although 
> not the first to do so, points up forcefully in my opinion the many 
> parallels between Wiccan practice and Buddhist tantra and suggests 
> they are unlikely to be coincidental.


> Re. Masonry, I was instrumental a couple of years ago in helping 
> Philip to get a copy of GBG’s EA certificate. Being a Co-Mason at the 
> time I also hoped I could procure for him proof of Gerald’s membership 
> of that organization as the Grand Commander said he had documentary 
> proof of same. Unfortunately, I left the Order before having sight of 
> this and to my knowledge Philip has not followed up the lead (e-mail 
> from him on this, February 2006). In any event, we know that GBG mixed 
> with co-masons even if he was not one himself. Now in my experience of 
> both co-masonic and Wicca initiations I speculate that GBG may have 
> been more influenced by Co-masonry than by Masonry and that he 
> creatively turned the gender difference of the former into the sexual 
> polarity of the Wicca. But my main point is that the co-masonic order 
> in question is and was French (as again noted by Philip) with a French 
> name and H.Q. in Paris.
> My contention thus remains that if a newcomer is looking to a BoS to 
> contain a fair proportion of `Celtic’, Anglo-Saxon, Arthurian, 
> Shakespeare, Blake, etc, or even some traditional lore from the New 
> Forest they will be disappointed. This is why I feel that that phrase 
> taken /out of context/ is misleading and unfortunate.
> Taken in the wider context, as Chas and Dave point out, then I have no 
> quibble. Nor should the above be taken in any way as being critical of 
> Wicca. I, too,think Philip’s texts are superb. But, to close with a 
> personal anecdote. I have a friend in South West England. He and all 
> members of his group are Gardnerian Wiccans. However, since working in 
> Cornwall they have stopped using Wicca liturgies and practices and 
> have developed what they feel is more in keeping with the ethos of the 
> land and its genus loci. I doubt if they are the only ones to do so.
> best regards,
> Ken
>
>
> */Melissa Harrington <[log in to unmask]>/* wrote:
>
>     Dear Dave, Ken, Felicia, Caroline, Mogg and all
>
>     Thanks for the interesting conversation, and to Dave, Felicia and
>     Caroline
>     for inviting me to join the debate, I am here but usually just
>     lurk due to
>     time pressure of being mum-of-small-kids, but this thread was
>     tempting me
>     already.
>
>     Ken, I must admit I was a little perplexed about the 'non-British
>     Wicca'. I've
>     always seen it as a syncretised living religion that has taken on
>     board
>     material, influences and ideas from many sources, including classical
>     influences that would have been part of the education of the
>     people who made
>     up the magickal milieu from whence Wicca emerged. I would be
>     interested to
>     hear more on non-British Wicca if possible.
>
>     Felicia, I think you particularly hit the nail on the head by
>     saying that
>     plagiarism does not a corpus make. Regarding the Charge, it was
>     extent, and
>     more overtly thelemic, before Doreen Valiente rewrote it, but as
>     you said
>     also included pieces from other sources, including the Aradia. Now
>     the vast
>     majority of the form and content is in Doreen's words, so it is
>     attributed
>     to her.
>
>     There has indeed been some conjecture that when GG referred to a
>     coven he
>     was in fact referring to the Rosicrucian Theatre group. However, the
>     research of Philip Heselton on the roots of Wicca has shown that
>     there may
>     have been a coven, who were linkede to the theatre, but had their
>     own group.
>     So much of the mythmaking around the origins of Wicca is indeed
>     conjecture,
>     which then rapidly becomes 'fact', i.e. the old chestnut that
>     Crowley wrote
>     the Book of Shadows. For a good read on Wicca's roots I cannot
>     recommend
>     Heselton's books enough, particularly when read in conjunction
>     with Hutton's
>     Triumph of the Moon.
>
>     Congratulations for your work on Parsons. I too would be
>     interested to know
>     whether Aleister Crowley or Gerald Gardner were ever in possession
>     of Jack
>     Parsons' writings regarding witchcraft. I am also curious as to
>     who it is
>     that suggests Gardner was influenced by Parsons and what evidence
>     they
>     present to support their claim. I have an idea where this may have
>     come
>     from, but will wait for Mogg's answer in case I am completely wrong.
>
>     Regarding the initiations, I would not say that Gardnerian
>     initiations are
>     straight out of the OTO's Man of Earth initiations. Like Caroline
>     (hello
>     again Caroline) I can see where both the OTO and Wicca have
>     borrowed from
>     Freemasonry, or indeed from archetypal initiation ceremony.
>     Although the two
>     first degrees have freemasonic elements and some obvious symbology in
>     common, the rest of the OTO Man of Earth does not, in my opinion,
>     relate to
>     the Wiccan initiations. I won't go into it any further here, but if
>     comparisons are to be drawn, from my experience and from what I
>     understand
>     of the rituals, I would rather tend to see each Wiccan degree to
>     correspond
>     to a triad of initiations within in the OTO, both in what is
>     conveyed to the
>     candidate, and what is expected of them. This also fits with the
>     ethos of
>     each tradition. Both seek to initiate and empower their initiatory
>     candidates, and do so via a three part system; however Wicca, the
>     segmented
>     polycephalus Nature religion, maintains fewer formal degrees and more
>     individualistic initiation criteria than the OTO, the hierarchical
>     organisation which splits its grades into a number of subsidiary
>     degrees.
>     That of course is just my opinion but I hope it is helpful ,or at
>     least
>     opens up more cordial dialogue on this thread.
>
>     With regards
>
>     Melissa.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sent from Yahoo! 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html> 
> - a smarter inbox.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1265 - Release Date: 2/7/2008 11:17 AM
>