medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
what's the question, V.K.?
c
------ Original Message ------
Received: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:48:12 AM EST
From: "V. Kerry Inman" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Consecration rites and the 'heavenly Jerusalem' ... supp.
question
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:29:56 -0500
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Consecration rites and the 'heavenly Jerusalem' ...
supp. question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > From: "Grover Zinn (imap)" <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > > hard to summarize what "topography" means in Bruun's book. There is a
> > Biblical topography of which B is conscious, and which he uses, but there
is
> > also a spiritual/tropological, etc. journey through the topography of B's
> > Jerusalem, Paradise, etc etc.
> >
> > yes, as i suspected.
> >
> > "tropological" was the word i was looking for but couldn't think of,
> > off-hand.
> >
> > that's certainly the "key" to the whole idea, seems to me.
> >
> > manifests itself in multiple forms, in the West.
> >
> > e.g., the liturgical processions around Latin Jerusalem might be (and
> > apparently were) "replicated" in processions around, say, Chartres.
(Jaroslav
> > Folda has worked on the Jerusalem liturgies; Margot Fassler, of course, on
the
> > Chartrain.)
> >
> > or, within buildings themselves, there might be various "stations" (my
> > inadequate word) which were "replications" of Holy Land topography (i have
in
> > mind the interesting, but not-too-good-alas, thoughts along this line
which
> > Linda Seidel put forward in her "Gislebertus" book: the tomb of St.
Lazare
> > within the church acting as a tropological surrogate for the Real thing in
the
> > Latin Kingdom).
> >
> > >Much lies in the exegetical turns taken by B in his sermons, etc. -- and
the
> > "spiritual' interpretation topographic details.
> >
> > yes.
> >
> > >Jerusalem is a place, but a monastery, a piritual/celestial reality, etc
etc.
> > Also the concept of the "journey"---real/life journey/spiritual journey,
> > etc.
> >
> > yes.
> >
> > > BTW, can you give me references to sources for the Abbey of St. Mary of
> > Josaphat (France)
> >
> > Margot will be talking about it more than a bit in her forthcomming (or
maybe
> > published) Chartres book --the Founder, Bishop Godfrey (II) "of Leves"
turns
> > out to have been a great Builder and one of the most important churchmen
of
> > his time (died 114x).
> >
> > given that, there's not been too much work on the place in a century or
so
> > --the church itself (at Leves, a far suburb of Chartres, downstream on
the
> > Eure about a mile, a very nice walk) was basically destroyed in the wars
of
> > religion, but the ruins (partly excavated c. 1900) demonstrate that it was
a
> > very, very nice and substantial structure, a rare and precious exemplar
of
> > what "early gothic" looked like in that region in the second and third
quarter
> > of c. 12.
> >
> >
> > it was the necropolis of both the Leves family (a.k.a. "Le Riche/Divitis")
and
> > the 12th (after Ivo, who was buried in his beloved St. John's) & early
13th c.
> > bishops of Chartres (John of Salisbury's tomb being the the most famous
one of
> > the surviving group).
> >
> > the (two vol.) cartulary is available on http://gallica.bnf.fr:
> >
> > Métais, Charles. Cartulaire de Notre-Dame de Josaphat. (1117-1217).
> >
> > Métais' edition of the charters is more than a bit Funky, but he has a
pretty
> > good histoical introduction in Tome I, which is the most complete account
of
> > the place yet written.
> >
> > he also was responsible for the excavations of c. 1900, the results of
which
> > were (more or less) published but is a hard book to find (i happen to have
a
> > copy, which i believe i've OCRed).
> >
> > that's about it, best i can recall.
> >
> > check out Margot's new book.
> >
> > >and the Jerusalem church.
> >
> > this is the abbey (Benedictine, i believe) built over the supposed tomb of
the
> > BVM, orginally pretty early, venerated somewhat by the Infidels, rebuilt
and
> > expanded under the Latin Kingdom.
> >
> > the surviving charters were published as:
> >
> > Chartes de Terre Sainte provenant de l'abbaye de N.-D. de Josaphat
publiées
> > par H.-François Delaborde,... Paris : E. Thorin, 1880. 153 pp.
(Bibliotheque
> > des Ecoles francaises d'Athenes et de Rome, fasc. 19)
> >
> > also available on Gallica.
> >
> >
> > as it happens, a seal (bulla) from the abbey was recently found in
excavations
> > of an important abbey South of Chartres:
> >
> > Racinet, Philippe, et al. Archéologie et histoire d'un prieuré
bénédictin
> > en Beauce: Nottonville, Eure-et-Loir, Xe-XVIIe siècles. Paris: Comité
des
> > travaux historiques et scientifiques, 2006. [Josaphat Seal: pp. 146-150,
“Du
> > témoin sigillographique à la preuve textuelle”]
> >
> > Racinet, Philippe and Marc Bompaire, "Une bulle de Notre-Dame de Josaphat
> > (Jérusalem) découverte en fouilles à Nottonville (Eure-et-Loir)", dans
> > Mémoires de la Société nationale des antiquaires de France, 1993, p.
> > 350-357.] [cf. Bompaire, M. "Trouvailles de bulles et de monnaies de
l'Orient
> > latin en France : quelles relations?" in Jehel, Georges, et al., eds.,
Orient
> > et Occident, IXe-XVe siècles, histoire et archéologie, Actes du
Colloque
> > d'Amiens, 8-10 octobre 1998 (Histoire médiévale et archéologie, vol.
11,),
> > 2000, pp. 75-84. L'A. présente la bulle de plomb, provenant du prieuré
de
> > Nottonville, de l'abbé Gilduin du monastère de Josaphat en Palestine,
qui
> > appartenait à la famille du Puiset établie dans le royaume de Jérusalem
où
> > elle détenait la seigneurie de Jaffa. La diffusion des monnaies et des
sceaux
> > de l'Orient latin montre la nature des relations Orient-Occident de
l'époque
> > des croisades.]
> >
> >
> >
> > >Does the church near Jerusalem appear on the surviving fragments of the
> > Madaba map
> >
> > i have no idea.
> >
> > >or is the church too late for that?
> >
> > Viday Soupra.
> >
> > >(Madaba is a very interesting aspect of the early "Christianizing" of
the
> > "Holy Land" since the map is full of markers, shrines, etc. transforming
the
> > topography into a Christian (not Jewish) topography. Mapping, or
> > naming/delineating, can transform the viewed object (in this case,
landscape).
> > But that has more to to with modern theories of mapping, etc. (which are
of
> >
> > interest, of course, to those of us who ponder medieval maps--extant or
not
> > extant [H. of S.V.'s drawing, for instance])
> >
> >
> > i think that there has been quite a bit of work on this, re the Latin
Kingdom
> > and 12th c. Jerusalem, in particular, but the literature is spread out
all
> > over the place (art history, crusade history, etc.) and i don't know it.
> >
> >
> > > enough for now.
> >
> > never "enough"
> >
> > "now" or later.
> >
> > what a Curious Concept: "enough"
> >
> > c
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|