medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Turns out that if you use thermae as a search term in the Patrologia
latina, you get little; but if you use balneum you get a lot of
references. As one might expect, Tertullian has a lot to say about
baths. All of it negative.
Tom Izbicki
jbugslag wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I can't remember what text it was (the Shepherd of Hermas, perhaps?), but there is an early
> Christian text that is prefaced by an account of the Christian writer, a servant of a noble
> Roman lady, seeing her bathing in the Tiber naked and having libidinous thoughts. It wasn't
> so much the bathing itself as the visible circumstances of bathing at that time that were under
> question here. Although my Latin is rather small, might not that sort of thing, perhaps even
> inspired by that very text, be what Augustine is railing against here?
> Jim Bugslag
>
> On 2 Jan 2008 at 13:33, Tom Izbicki wrote:
>
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>> culture
>>
>> Thus far, the earliest reference to the baths in those negative terms
>> I can find is: "et prurigo thermarum" in S. AURELII AUGUSTINI
>> HIPPONENSIS EPISCOPI DE CATECHIZANDIS RUDIBUS LIBER UNUS c. 16,
>> Patrologia latina 40.330: Quomodo ergo sanitatem pacis tenere animus
>> potest, qui discordiis et certaminibus pascitur? Qualis enim cibus
>> sumitur, talis valetudo consequitur. Postremo quamvis insana gaudia
>> non sint gaudia, tamen qualiacumque sint, et quantumlibet delectet
>> jactantia divitiarum, et tumor honorum, vorago popinarum, et bella
>> theatrorum, et immunditia fornicationum, et prurigo [H]thermarum;
>> aufert omnia ista una febricula, et adhuc viventibus totam falsam
>> beatitudinem subtrahit: remanet inanis et saucia conscientia, Deum
>> sensura judicem, quem noluit habere custodem; et inventura asperum
>> Dominum, quem dulcem patrem quaerere et amare contempsit. Tom Izbicki
>>
>>
>>
>> George R. Hoelzeman wrote:
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>> culture
>>>
>>> I have to say, what you're noting here is very interesting. I've
>>> always heard/read the phrase "odor of sanctity" but would there be a
>>> Latin (or other) phrase that is more precisely translated "odor of
>>> piety/piosity"? What sources are there on the subject?
>>>
>>> I seem to recall that foregoing baths was seen as a pious practice
>>> among the early Monastic Fathers, though I forget the exact
>>> references at the moment. I suspect that it was rooted in the
>>> association of the Baths with the luxurious decadence (real or
>>> imagined) of the late Imperial period. But then, would not earlier
>>> practices like those described in Job be related to not bathing
>>> (covering oneself with ashes, etc. as a sign of penitence/fasting)?
>>>
>>> There is also a story in the Arabian Nights in which a man of some
>>> stature conceals his identity by assuming the clothes of a local
>>> holy man only to discover the Sufi's clothes are infested with lice.
>>> . . again, I'll have to comb thru my translation of the "Nights" to
>>> find exactly where. . .
>>>
>>> This is very interesting.
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:02:52 -0500, V. Kerry Inman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I appreciate your response. Certainly he was odorous, but was this
>>>> a real accomplishment in the middle ages? I think there is a
>>>> difference between the odor of piety (some would call this
>>>> piosity)--a very real odor which I have smelled many times--and
>>>> odorless sanctity. The problem is there were no instruments to
>>>> measure this in the middle ages and we are dependent upon the noses
>>>> and descriptions of middle evilians, mostly hagiographers, who did
>>>> not always distinguish between piety and sanctity. I realize I am
>>>> not documenting--being a stickler on documentation--but according
>>>> to one late medieval source the reason the Muslims lost Spain to
>>>> the Christians was that the Muslims bathed regularly where as the
>>>> Christians were more pious.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> V. K. Inman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is another list I am on, on which everything I have said
>>>> would be taken as academic proliferation and challenged with
>>>> recommendations like--read the Wikipedia article by Jedd Klampet on
>>>> this subject. Right Rochelle, Bob?
>>>>
>>>>
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