medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I can't remember what text it was (the Shepherd of Hermas, perhaps?), but there is an early
Christian text that is prefaced by an account of the Christian writer, a servant of a noble
Roman lady, seeing her bathing in the Tiber naked and having libidinous thoughts. It wasn't
so much the bathing itself as the visible circumstances of bathing at that time that were under
question here. Although my Latin is rather small, might not that sort of thing, perhaps even
inspired by that very text, be what Augustine is railing against here?
Jim Bugslag
On 2 Jan 2008 at 13:33, Tom Izbicki wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
>
> Thus far, the earliest reference to the baths in those negative terms
> I can find is: "et prurigo thermarum" in S. AURELII AUGUSTINI
> HIPPONENSIS EPISCOPI DE CATECHIZANDIS RUDIBUS LIBER UNUS c. 16,
> Patrologia latina 40.330: Quomodo ergo sanitatem pacis tenere animus
> potest, qui discordiis et certaminibus pascitur? Qualis enim cibus
> sumitur, talis valetudo consequitur. Postremo quamvis insana gaudia
> non sint gaudia, tamen qualiacumque sint, et quantumlibet delectet
> jactantia divitiarum, et tumor honorum, vorago popinarum, et bella
> theatrorum, et immunditia fornicationum, et prurigo [H]thermarum;
> aufert omnia ista una febricula, et adhuc viventibus totam falsam
> beatitudinem subtrahit: remanet inanis et saucia conscientia, Deum
> sensura judicem, quem noluit habere custodem; et inventura asperum
> Dominum, quem dulcem patrem quaerere et amare contempsit. Tom Izbicki
>
>
>
> George R. Hoelzeman wrote:
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> >
> > I have to say, what you're noting here is very interesting. I've
> > always heard/read the phrase "odor of sanctity" but would there be a
> > Latin (or other) phrase that is more precisely translated "odor of
> > piety/piosity"? What sources are there on the subject?
> >
> > I seem to recall that foregoing baths was seen as a pious practice
> > among the early Monastic Fathers, though I forget the exact
> > references at the moment. I suspect that it was rooted in the
> > association of the Baths with the luxurious decadence (real or
> > imagined) of the late Imperial period. But then, would not earlier
> > practices like those described in Job be related to not bathing
> > (covering oneself with ashes, etc. as a sign of penitence/fasting)?
> >
> > There is also a story in the Arabian Nights in which a man of some
> > stature conceals his identity by assuming the clothes of a local
> > holy man only to discover the Sufi's clothes are infested with lice.
> > . . again, I'll have to comb thru my translation of the "Nights" to
> > find exactly where. . .
> >
> > This is very interesting.
> >
> > George
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:02:52 -0500, V. Kerry Inman wrote:
> >
> >
> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >> culture
> >>
> >
> >
> >> I appreciate your response. Certainly he was odorous, but was this
> >> a real accomplishment in the middle ages? I think there is a
> >> difference between the odor of piety (some would call this
> >> piosity)--a very real odor which I have smelled many times--and
> >> odorless sanctity. The problem is there were no instruments to
> >> measure this in the middle ages and we are dependent upon the noses
> >> and descriptions of middle evilians, mostly hagiographers, who did
> >> not always distinguish between piety and sanctity. I realize I am
> >> not documenting--being a stickler on documentation--but according
> >> to one late medieval source the reason the Muslims lost Spain to
> >> the Christians was that the Muslims bathed regularly where as the
> >> Christians were more pious.
> >>
> >
> >
> >> V. K. Inman
> >>
> >
> >
> >> There is another list I am on, on which everything I have said
> >> would be taken as academic proliferation and challenged with
> >> recommendations like--read the Wikipedia article by Jedd Klampet on
> >> this subject. Right Rochelle, Bob?
> >>
> >
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