medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Somehow, it doesn't surprise me that Augustine would hold that position, considering his (real or embellished) youth. . .
Would the Baths have had the same significance outside the Italian peninsula? Was the reputation of the baths as a locus for debauchery/decadence
actually not widespread until Augustine's vilification?
Reading thru Krautheimer's "Rome: Profile of a City 312-1308" one gets the impression that the actual perceptions about Rome in late antiquity and early
middle ages were rather different than the later notions which emerge under the influence of Romanticism. . .
Perhaps the whole conectino with the baths is tenious and the practice is rooted in far more ancient penitential practices.
George
On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:33:19 -0500, Tom Izbicki wrote:
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>Thus far, the earliest reference to the baths in those negative terms I
>can find is: "et prurigo thermarum" in S. AURELII AUGUSTINI HIPPONENSIS
>EPISCOPI DE CATECHIZANDIS RUDIBUS LIBER UNUS c. 16, Patrologia latina
>40.330:
>Quomodo ergo sanitatem pacis tenere animus potest, qui discordiis et
>certaminibus pascitur? Qualis enim cibus sumitur, talis valetudo
>consequitur. Postremo quamvis insana gaudia non sint gaudia, tamen
>qualiacumque sint, et quantumlibet delectet jactantia divitiarum, et
>tumor honorum, vorago popinarum, et bella theatrorum, et immunditia
>fornicationum, et prurigo [H]thermarum; aufert omnia ista una febricula,
>et adhuc viventibus totam falsam beatitudinem subtrahit: remanet inanis
>et saucia conscientia, Deum sensura judicem, quem noluit habere
>custodem; et inventura asperum Dominum, quem dulcem patrem quaerere et
>amare contempsit.
>Tom Izbicki
>George R. Hoelzeman wrote:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> I have to say, what you're noting here is very interesting. I've always heard/read the phrase "odor of sanctity" but would there be a Latin (or other)
phrase
>> that is more precisely translated "odor of piety/piosity"? What sources are there on the subject?
>>
>> I seem to recall that foregoing baths was seen as a pious practice among the early Monastic Fathers, though I forget the exact references at the
moment. I
>> suspect that it was rooted in the association of the Baths with the luxurious decadence (real or imagined) of the late Imperial period. But then, would not
>> earlier practices like those described in Job be related to not bathing (covering oneself with ashes, etc. as a sign of penitence/fasting)?
>>
>> There is also a story in the Arabian Nights in which a man of some stature conceals his identity by assuming the clothes of a local holy man only to
discover
>> the Sufi's clothes are infested with lice. . . again, I'll have to comb thru my translation of the "Nights" to find exactly where. . .
>>
>> This is very interesting.
>>
>> George
>>
>> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:02:52 -0500, V. Kerry Inman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>>
>>
>>
>>> I appreciate your response. Certainly he was odorous, but was this a real
>>> accomplishment in the middle ages? I think there is a difference between the
>>> odor of piety (some would call this piosity)--a very real odor which I have
>>> smelled many times--and odorless sanctity. The problem is there were no
>>> instruments to measure this in the middle ages and we are dependent upon the
>>> noses and descriptions of middle evilians, mostly hagiographers, who did not
>>> always distinguish between piety and sanctity. I realize I am not
>>> documenting--being a stickler on documentation--but according to one late
>>> medieval source the reason the Muslims lost Spain to the Christians was that
>>> the Muslims bathed regularly where as the Christians were more pious.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> V. K. Inman
>>>
>>
>>
>>> There is another list I am on, on which everything I have said would be taken as
>>> academic proliferation and challenged with recommendations like--read the
>>> Wikipedia article by Jedd Klampet on this subject. Right Rochelle, Bob?
>>>
>>
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