medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Henk 't Jong <[log in to unmask]>
> I showed it to the list to let them see what neo-gothics (;-)) overhere
made
of medieval colours. In short: they're just 'off'.
how do you know this?
my money would be on Amiens as being "off."
>This was done by Pierre Cuypers (1827-1921) our Dutch neo-gothic architect,
arts and crafts promotor, restaurator, advisor, demolisher of 19th c houses
and churches buff. He's all over the place here and also in Belgium and
Germany. He almost single-handedly drew Nederland into medievalism.
an ability to draw is a good skill to have, if you're an architect.
>>perhaps a 19th c. repaint job, after the remaining original colors?
> I've had a tour around the church once and the guide told us that none of
the colours were left or visible when Cuypers designed them for the portal.
I have no way at the moment to verify that.
why would you need to "verify" it?
the Guide *told* you that.
who's ever heard of a Church Guide who said something which wasn't True?
>>in any event, i would not describe these exemplars as "garish"; whereas to
use that word for the Amiens dudes is something of an Understatement.
> It's probably pretty much like it used to be at first; however garish we
might find it.
i say: not enough exemplars survive for us to form an opinion, one way or the
other, about whether the Amiens stuff is (as it clearly is) Over the Goddamned
Top or not.
otOh, there *is* enough surviving evidence from mss and wall painting to
suggest that Amiens is a grotesque abberation --even without the Monuments
Alcoholiques's dreadful "Son et Lummiere" treatment of it.
>Mind you, all colours that are left in the weather lighten through time.
not if it is covered with a quarter inch of black soot, which is what Amiens
was --jet BLACK-- until the recent cleaning.
>>very pleasant, actually, those colors.
> I beg to differ. These were not colours that were available to 14th c
painters:
i didn't say they were.
i just said they were "pleasant."
anyway, i thought that the sculpture was mid-13th c., not 14th.
>they had real colours, not those muted versions of coppergreen, red and
yellow ochre and smoke blue.
which is why they were all so hot to get *spices* for their food.
ummm... they also had what we call "earthcolors," did they not --pigments
which were made from vegetable matter and which tend to be, by their very
nature, somewhat "muted"?
>>i think you mean "see-gar," Hank.
>> the nuances of English can be difficult, as a second language.
> Every once in awhile the home language shines through: in Dutch it's
sigaar.
>But when I think about it I know it's: cigar.
then don't think about it too much.
the word is definitely pronounced "SEE-gar," in the Gently Rolling Hills of
Southern Indianer.
but, of course, Real Men smoke Marlboros.
so, you're saying, Hank, that you accept the Amiens colors as we see them
today as being, not just the "original" colors on the stone (which, i presume
from archeological analysis --one of the few things which the Monuments
Alcoholiques does really well-- is the case) but that they are also "typical"
of what early/mid-13th c. portals would have looked like?
c
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