medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
This story was not just known to the English.
From *Author:* Mézeray, François Eudes de, 1610-1683.
*Title:* A general chronological history of France beginning before the
reign of King Pharamond, and ending with the reign of King Henry the
Fourth, containing both the civil and the ecclesiastical transactions of
that kingdom / by the sieur De Mezeray ... ; translated by John Bulteel ...
*Date:* 1683
[Year of our Lord 1314] /<-
<http://eebo.chadwyck.com/search/fulltext?ACTION=ByID&ID=D30000121123090059&SOURCE=config.cfg&DISPLAY=ALPHA&WARN=N&FILE=../session/1192396902_27528#Hit1>[H] ->
<http://eebo.chadwyck.com/search/fulltext?ACTION=ByID&ID=D30000121123090059&SOURCE=config.cfg&DISPLAY=ALPHA&WARN=N&FILE=../session/1192396902_27528#Hit3>Molay,/
Grand Master of the /Templers,/ and his three Compagnons, had confessed
all whatever they would accuse them of, in hopes of gaining their
liberty: but finding they were still kept prisoners, /<-
<http://eebo.chadwyck.com/search/fulltext?ACTION=ByID&ID=D30000121123090059&SOURCE=config.cfg&DISPLAY=ALPHA&WARN=N&FILE=../session/1192396902_27528#Hit2>[H] ->
<http://eebo.chadwyck.com/search/fulltext?ACTION=ByID&ID=D30000121123090059&SOURCE=config.cfg&DISPLAY=ALPHA&WARN=N&FILE=../session/1192396902_27528#Hit4>Molay/
and the Dauphin's Brother retracted; but they were burnt alive upon the
eleventh day of the month of /March. <-
<http://eebo.chadwyck.com/search/fulltext?ACTION=ByID&ID=D30000121123090059&SOURCE=config.cfg&DISPLAY=ALPHA&WARN=N&FILE=../session/1192396902_27528#Hit3>[H] Molay/
by his marvellous constancy made every one judge he was innocent. It is
related, but without any proof, that he summon'd the Pope to appear
before the Tribunal of God Almighty within Forty days, and the King
within that year; and indeed neither of them out-lived that time.
Tom izbicki
John Dillon wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Dear Henk,
>
> Obviously (given my PS about Keightley in the message you quote), Charles Addison was not the author of the purported curse in the verbal form adduced by Marjorie. Either Addison took that text from the slightly earlier Keightley (who in turn will have taken it, with or without embellishment, from someone else) or both were drawing on a common source. What the "Many latter day writers" may have said about the _nature_ of the curse is a related question not precisely identical to that of the authorship of the form of words in question.
>
> That said, it ought to be equally obvious that that form of words is extraordinarily unlikely to be an accurate rendering (presumably through some Latin-language intermediary and perhaps through one in modern French as well) of whatever it was that some one or ones may have heard De Molay say as he underwent execution. It's just too polished and too syntactically complex to be a plausible representation of a dying man's final words as spoken.
>
> Fanciful though it is, De Molay's purported curse in the form propagated by Keightley and by Addison doesn't hold a candle in length or in other indicia of implausibility to some of the declamations attributed to Charles I of England ("Charles the Martyr") upon the scaffold. Such supposed final utterances participate in a lengthy, pre-scientific tradition in which reported speeches are creations of an historian and/or propagandist presenting ideas, sentiments, etc. in a form appropriate to their author's conception of what the person in question should ideally have said at a particular moment in time. For some inquiries, it's actually useful to know who these writers were (e.g., if the earliest report of a dying declaration by De Molay comes centuries after the fact, that in itself is grounds for deep suspicion of its content).
>
> Best again,
> John Dillon
>
> On Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 3:01 pm, Henk 't Jong wrote:
>
>
>> John Dillon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Indeed. Marjorie's source may be this webpage from jacquesdemolay.org,
>>>
>> which offers the whole passage from "There are many accounts" onward without
>> identifying the "foremost Templar scholar" to whom the reported text of
>> curse is attributed:
>>
>> http://www.jacquesdemolay.org/
>>
>> But this page from www.templarhistory.com, which has precisely the same
>> quotation, identifies the source (also called "one of the foremost Templar
>> scholars") as "the 19th century historian, Charles Addison":
>>
>> http://www.templarhistory.com/demolay.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> He does not seem to have written down the curse, as it is said: "Many
>> latter
>> day writers have claimed (! My exclamation mark, HtJ) that de Molay in
>> his
>> dying breath summoned both the King of France and Pope Clement to meet
>> him
>> in a tribunal before God within the year. True to the claim both men did
>> indeed die within that time."
>>
>> But let's nog go there to try and find out who the 'many latter day writers'
>> were.
>>
>
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