medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
To the best of my memory, I have seen references to Dominican friars
leaving a convent rather than accept the Observance. For the Dominican
Observance in Spain, you can consult:
*
Historia de la reforma de la provincia de España (1450-1550)*
Vicente *Beltrán de Heredia*
1939
*Spanish* Book Book viii, 278 p. 25 cm.
Romae ad S. Sabinae,
Tom Izbicki
Daniel K. Gullo wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Thank you for this information from the canons. They are
> very interesting.
>
> To answer the first question, no. The abbot did not give
> them permission to leave. This would only happen in 1493,
> when a new reform under the Congregation of Valladolid
> brought about more depatures. The king, throwing up his
> hands this time, let them leave and gave them a pension just
> to get monks and hermits living there according to his
> desire to implement observance.
>
> To the second, this question comes directly from Bernard's
> treatise it seems, though Bernard argues against the return
> as it would be a double scandal. It is bad enough for one
> to break the vow of stability once. It is twice as bad to
> break it again by being forced to return, in this case from
> a sense of guilt.
>
> At Montserrat it seems to be a twofold problem: interpreting
> the phrase "according to the Rule" and at least an irregular
> election among the hermits, where their own superior was
> imposed rather than elected according to the constitutions
> of 1476. The hermits could argue both cases: they had not
> vowed to live according to the interpretation being imposed
> upon the them, and they had an irregularly elected abbot.
> According to an anonymous treatise at Bec, one could leave
> if the abbot was irregularly elected. According to Bernard,
> one could disobey the abbot if he interpreted the Rule
> beyond what the Rule stated. The question is who determines
> the interpretation.
>
> The monks could argue both also. The abbey was placed in
> commendam for a second time (the first in 1476) rather than
> by election as it had been prior to 1476. There is little
> evidence that the issue was the commendam abbacy as the
> abbot Joan de Peralta wanted to bring triennial election to
> the community. The issue here seems to be Observance.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
>
>> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:41:07 -0400
>> From: Tom Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Dispensation and Reform
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>
> religion and culture
>
>> A quick look at the Gregorian decretals shows two texts in
>>
> book III
>
>> under the title De regularibus that are of of interest, but
>>
> neither
>
>> exactly matches.
>>
>> c. Non est vobis [X 3.31.7] says a Cistercian who moves to
>>
> another
>
>> monastery without the abbot's permission can be compelled
>>
> to return. id
>
>> the abbot of Montserrat give permission for the monks and
>>
> hermits to
>
>> leave? If not, that might explain the king's actions.
>>
>> c. Licet de quibusdam [c. 18] is less to the point,
>>
> forbidding tranfer
>
>> of a monk even to a stricter monastery without his
>>
> prelate's permission.
>
>> You might consult:
>>
>> Personal author: *Logan, F. Donald.*
>> <http://www.iris.rutgers.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/4pD5E8MxaS/ALCO
>>
> HOL/80300261/18/X100/XAUTHOR/Logan,+F.+Donald.>
>
>> Title: Runaway religious in medieval England, c.
>>
> 1240-1540 / F. Donald
>
>> Logan.
>> Publication info: Cambridge ; New York : Cambridge
>>
> University Press, 1996.
>
>> Tom Izbicki
>>
>>
>> Daniel K. Gullo wrote:
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>
> religion and culture
>
>>> I am wondering if somebody may help me solve a question
>>>
> that I
>
>>> am working on with regard to the problem of the
>>>
> imposition of
>
>>> Observantine reform on monastic communities.
>>>
>>> Bernard of Clairvaux posed an interesting question. Can
>>>
> one
>
>>> force a monk to take on Cistercian observances if he
>>>
> professed
>
>>> to follow a different interpretation (i.e. more lax
>>>
> according
>
>>> to Bernard) of the Benedictine Rule. The idea here is
>>>
> related
>
>>> to vows. Can one be forced to submit to a different view
>>>
> of
>
>>> living according to the Rule when one entered and
>>>
> professed
>
>>> according to what one saw and experienced in the
>>>
> monastery.
>
>>> His answer was no. One cannot force Cistercian practices
>>>
> on a
>
>>> Cluniac monastery unless the monks freely chose that form
>>>
> of life.
>
>>> This is the problem that I have at Montserrat, where
>>>
> several
>
>>> monks and hermits abandoned the monastery when Fernando II
>>> initiated a reform based on Observantinism in 1479. These
>>> monks and hermits asked for a pension after abandoning the
>>> community in 1483 and 1484. The king denied them the
>>>
> pension,
>
>>> ordered them to submit, and if not they could leave
>>>
> without
>
>>> support.
>>>
>>> This convoluted introduction is to ask whether or not
>>> Bernard's view found its way into canon law: one cannot
>>>
> force
>
>>> a monk to take on strict observance when he vowed to live
>>> according to a more traditional claustral lifestyle.
>>>
>>> The other side of this question is the general request
>>>
> for any
>
>>> bibliographic information on how this debate might have
>>>
> taken
>
>>> place in later medieval literature.
>>>
>>> Thank you so much for any help in this matter,
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>>
> *************************************************************
> *********
>
>>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-
>>>
> religion YOUR NAME
>
>>> to: [log in to unmask]
>>> To send a message to the list, address it to:
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-
>>>
> religion
>
>>> to: [log in to unmask]
>>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's
>>>
> owners, write to:
>
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> For further information, visit our web site:
>>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>>
>>>
>> ************************************************************
>>
> **********
>
>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion
>>
> YOUR NAME
>
>> to: [log in to unmask]
>> To send a message to the list, address it to:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
>> to: [log in to unmask]
>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's
>>
> owners, write to:
>
>> [log in to unmask]
>> For further information, visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|