Mark, Roger, you are both correct. There are several types of pastry one can 
make, though these days I understand most people buy them ready-made from 
the freezer or chiller cabinet.

I think Roger is talking about something which is sometimes called apple 
pudding and sometimes apple dumpling, which is indeed made as he describes, 
with a suet pastry which will withstand the long steaming, though actually 
it only takes an hour or so. And very good it is too.

What I would use for a pie or flan is a shortcrust pastry, 8oz flour to 4oz 
fat. My mother used to put half and half lard and margarine but these days I 
use all butter. And she and I both preferred self-raising flour, for the 
slightly softer texture it gives.

Puff pastry demands a complicated process of rolling, adding extra butter 
and folding it in in a particular way, rolling again, turning in the correct 
direction (I kid you not), leaving it all to rest, and repeating everything 
at least 3 times. I may say I've never done it. I have made something called 
rough puff, which is a bit less troublesome, but didn't think the result was 
worth the extra effort. Flaky pastry is another name for one of these, but 
can't remember which. They do have rather specialist uses, and if I need 
puff, which is rarely, that one I do buy ready-made.

On the subject of cheese with apple pie, that sounds rather interesting. In 
the north of England the natives eat Lancashire or Wensleydale cheese with 
rich fruit cake, and that's nice too.

Andrew, you poor deprived boy, let me know next time you're in this country 
and I will make cheese scones specially. But I'd better make it a double 
batch, cos you'll have to fight Roger (C) for them.

joanna


>A little corrective here. It's possible that I don't understand Roger's 
>lingo, but I sure as hell know that that's not an apple pie. Pies are 
>always baked. The fillings vary--pumpkin pie has a pumpkin custard filling, 
>key lime pie a lime custard filling, etc. It would be a stretch to call it 
>flan--nowhere near as eggy. There is always, for any kind of pie, a bottom 
>crust that lines the pan and is baked, then filled with whatever, then 
>baked again. There can be a top crust, or a lattice-work of crust. For 
>custard pies there is no top crust. Apple pie--the cut up apples with 
>whatever sweetener, usually cinnamon, and sometimes raisins, are partly 
>cooked (but not wrapped in foam and submerged in steam), then put in the 
>crust, then covered with the top crust or lattice, and baked till done. 
>Yum. With a scoop of vanilla ice cream.
>
> Sometimes with fruit pies instead of a top crust or lattice there is a 
> coating of crumbled-up moistened flour and sugar sprinkled thickly on top. 
> This is called "Dutch," as in Dutch Apple Pie.
>
> The shortening in the crust, by the way, is rarely suet. These days it's 
> likely to be a vegetable oil, but if an animal product is used it's going 
> to be lard.
>
> The only meat pie Americans eat unless they're trying to be British is 
> chicken pot pie. Even Shepherd's Pie is a WWII era attempt at being 
> British.
>
> Mark
>
> At 06:04 PM 3/25/2007, you wrote:
>>Mock Apple Pie? I bet it's vegetable marrow and cinnamon. I have a jam 
>>recipe which is similar. But hell, you'd use windfalls for pie or jam. 
>>People used to give those away, leave them in boxes by the gate with a 
>>notice saying Please help yourself. Them days is gorn, and folks is 
>>grubbing out their apple trees so as to have designer gardens, like in TV 
>>makeover programmes. Makes me damn' cross, all this stuff about the garden 
>>being "the outdoor room of your house". Excuse me? what about the plants? 
>>and the birds?
>>
>>I suspected that the American version of pie was what we would call flan. 
>>Maybe even quite a near relative to custard tart, which is eggs and milk 
>>beaten with a little sugar and nutmeg, strained into a previously baked 
>>(at a higher temperature) pastry case, and cooked in a moderate oven. I 
>>haven't made one for many years as Himself doesn't like them. Strange, as 
>>he loves quiche.
>>
>>joanna
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:33 PM
>>Subject: Re: Bakery Talk
>>
>>
>>>steamed apple pudding - same as S&k accept with apple inside. It would
>>>take hours to make: a porcelain bowl, lined with the suet mixture,
>>>filled with sliced cooking apple and sugar nearly to the brim, then a
>>>suet lid put on top. Foil lid, tied with string to make a handle. put
>>>in a half full vat of water, keep boiling, and adding water.
>>>
>>>Pumpkin pie is what the English would call a tart or a flan: I made
>>>one and kept wondering when the lid was going to come into it.
>>>
>>>Apple Pie goes back even further to Chaucer.
>>>
>>>Has anyone had Mock Apple Pie? And is it as awful as it sounds?
>>>
>>>Roger
>>>
>>>On 3/25/07, Joanna Boulter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>Has anybody mentioned scones? Do you have them in the States? I do still
>>>>have a reputation for my cheese scones -- I took a fresh-baked batch, 
>>>>ready
>>>>split and buttered, to a birthday party the other day, and they were 
>>>>gone in
>>>>a flatteringly short time.
>>>>
>>>>Just as as well, since my once-light hand for pastry seems to have 
>>>>deserted
>>>>me with age and stiffening joints.
>>>>
>>>>There was something I used to make years ago, when I had a houseful of 
>>>>kids
>>>>and very little money, which was a steamed pudding along the lines of 
>>>>steak
>>>>and kidney only taking much less time to cook.The filling was chopped 
>>>>leeks
>>>>and bacon offcuts -- I used to buy trimmings, or an actual hock and cut 
>>>>the
>>>>meat off at home. Lots of black pepper, and it was lovely with parsley
>>>>sauce, carrots, and some really dark greens. Of course, cheap food tends 
>>>>to
>>>>be fattening ..... ah well!
>>>>
>>>>Actually, while we're on this thread, can anyone explain to me exactly 
>>>>what
>>>>Americans mean by "pie"? It doesn't seem to be the double shortcrust 
>>>>pastry
>>>>(with a lid) that we mean by the term.
>>>>
>>>>joanna
>>>>
>>>> > Roger and Christopher,
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for educating me on cakes and muffins. I had
>>>> > some experience with English cooking when I was at
>>>> > Oxford one summer in the 1970s. I learned, for
>>>> > instance, that there are several different versions of
>>>> > afternoon tea: tea & bikkies,
>>>> > beans on toast, bangers with mash and canned peas, and
>>>> > finally, when I became convinced that cream teas were
>>>> > a fiction, I came across a little cottage with a sign
>>>> > saying "Cream Teas" in the window. It was wonderful,
>>>> > as were the desserts (and only the desserts) at
>>>> > Oxford. Dinner was frequently what we called "the
>>>> > white plate special": mutton, mashed potatoes, and
>>>> > cauliflower on a white plate. The lunches were worse,
>>>> > so I finally appealed to the Bursar for yoghurt,
>>>> > fruit, cheese, and peanut butter to be set out buffet
>>>> > style so that the undergrads would have an alternative
>>>> > lunch. (The Bursar was a guy who'd fallen out of a
>>>> > truck onto his head while on the way to his exams. He
>>>> > got a sympathy degree.) Anyway, I had to listen to his
>>>> > ranting about rich, spoiled American kids before he
>>>> > finally acquiesced to my request. (I was an assistant
>>>> > to the program's director, so I got all the worse
>>>> > jobs.)
>>>> >
>>>> > From what you say, I think I'd like the tea cakes
>>>> > because I'm the only one I know who likes fruitcake,
>>>> > especially when wrapped in a brandy-soaked cloth and
>>>> > put in a tin for a year before serving. And I'd like
>>>> > to know what black buns are since they've been
>>>> > positively reviewed by Christopher.
>>>> >
>>>> > Now, Joanna, I've heard the raves for your cooking, so
>>>> > I hope you'll contribute something to this wannabe
>>>> > thread.
>>>> >
>>>> > Candice
>>>> >
>>>> > I gotta go
>>>> > (Merle Kessler)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>My Stuff: http://www.badstep.net/
>>>"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde
>