medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Bonjour,
le 19.10.2005, vous avez écrit:
> From: John Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
> Matins could never
> have been at midnight (see below).
Sorry, but you take "what should have been" for "what is true".
Many churches and religious orders sung matins at midnight. Just
a short citation from "Music and Ceremony at Notre Dame of
Paris 500-1550" (author Craig Wright), page 103:
"From the earliest days of the church until the Revolution,
Matins was sung at the cathedral of Paris at midnight, the
only exception being at those feasts that occurred from
Trinity to Assumption when, because of the brevity of th night,
Matins and Lauds were celebrated as a vigil at about six
the preceding evening. As time progressed the Parisian
practice of chanting Matins at midnight became distinctive
as, one by one, the chapters of other secular churches
voted to postpone the start of the nocturnal office until dawn."
>> Matutinum+Laudes: It should end at dawn (when the sky starts to
>> become clear). Both offices together last more or less 2 hours.
>
> This illustrates the problem: Matins can't possibly begin at midnight.
Should theoretically not. But did normally.
> Better to have Compline begin at the end of twilight.
? I think, after dinner (apodeipnon), just before the night rest
>> During
>> fasting days, roughly since the XIII Century, most churches anticipate
>> vespers before 12 am (and all other hours accordingly) in order to
>> eat at midday. Mass is officially after None.
>
> That can't possibly be right. In the early middle ages there would be
> two meals a day during summer: a main one at around midday and a
> lesser one later (about 5 p.m. - after None?). During winter (and on
> fasting days) there would be a single main meal, but two or three
> hours later - later still during Lent.
Did I say otherwise? "that can't possibly be right"? You say:
" During winter (and on
asting days) there would be a single main meal, but two or three
hours later - later still during Lent."
Again: it should be -- it is. You are right if you speak for the time BEFORE
the XIIIth Century, it's not true for the time AFTER the XIVth Century.
Formally, the only meal was still after none, practically, through the
anticipation of none, it was taken at 12. And I said "since the XIIIth
Century" and you answer "That can't possibly be right. In the EARLY
middle ages"
> The Mass of the day could be after Terce, Sext or None, depending in
> part on whether there was a Morrow Mass, and when *that* was.
Naturally, every church organised services as it best fitted to its
needs. But Masses after None should have
been limited to Lent and Fasting days. And the most common usage
was: after Terce (I speak about conventual Mass, not "private" ones).
> The problem is that every writer on the subject will confidently give
> times for the various Hours and services, usually without any hint of
> doubt or variation - but they all disagree with each other!
The problem is that when a writer speaks of "none" or whatever, it
doesn't necessarily mean a fixed hour. Let's take the post tridentine
rubrics: they state that during Lent Mass has to be said after None:
Here the full rubric:
"Missa autem conventualis et sollemnis sequenti ordine dici debet,
In festis duplicibus et semiduplicibus, in Dominicis, et infra Octavas,
dicta in Choro Hora Tertia. In Festis simplicibus et in Feriis per
annum, dicta Sexta. In Adventu, Quadragesima et Quatuor Temporibus,
etiam infra Octavas Pentecostes, et Vigiliis quae jejunantur, quamvis
sint dies sollemnes, Missa de Tempore debet cantari post Nonam.
Missa autem Defunctorum dici debet post Primam diei: ubi vero
dicuntur eorum Vigiliae mane post Matutinum diei, dictis hujusmodi
Vigiliis cum Laudibus, immediate dici potest Missa pro Defunctis..."
etc...
> Take, for example, the Use of Sarum, and the First Mass
> of Christmas, the Missa in Gallicantu (or Mass at Cockcrow - calling
> it "Midnight Mass" doesn't help, but does illustrate the problem.) It
> is followed by Lauds and the Missa in Aurora (or Mass at Dawn). Dawn
> would be at about 8 a.m. When does the cock crow? Probably at about
> 6 a.m., so Matins can't start much before about 3.30 a.m.
What about that: "in galli cantu" could mean: Mass ends when the sky
starts to become gray (that's the ancient meaning of the phrase. Cf Egeria).
It begins one hour and half before that (at least! Don't forget to add
lenghty Organums and may be a small liturgical drama). Add again
at least one hour and half for the nocturnal part of Matins, it is already
three hours before the sky becomes gray (I think earlier than 6 a.m.).
And don't forget to add the (at least) half an hour of the Lauds, the
real Office of Cockcrow. Then the Missa in Aurora corresponds
really with the Aurora (the time before sunrise) and you will take
some rest (with Prime and Terce) before the Mass of the Day.
And, last but not least, don't take me too literally! I know very
well that schedules where elastic. I just tryed to give some generic
indications :-)
Avec mes meilleures salutations
--
Luca Basilio Ricossa
http://lrs.club.fr/
#Conservatoire de Genève--Schola Cantorum Basiliensis#
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