medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
1 Differences in the practice of dower - one of the secular considerations - nominated, customary, written agreement - might also be take into consideration.
2 The size of the party would presumably consist of 'friends' of the bride and groom and those expected to witness the words.
3 For a variety of reasons, many church porches were rebuilt and there are actually some very large church porches (Heckington, Warmington are but two examples), but the porch does not have to accommodate all the party, just those most intimately involved, and others can spill outside the door.
It seems to me that we are agreed about the issues about doctrine-canons/practice, variability, ambiguity etc etc. Some marriages were conducted at the door of the church, others weren't. Establishing a normative practice may be impossible - disputed matrimonial causes may not present normative evidence, but they are probably all we have to go on.
Clandestine marriages - a doctrine of the church and, again, only one perspective vis-a-vis customary perceptions of what constituted a marriage (not only through words, but common fame). Take into account too the differences over the status of bastards at common and canon law. There are different perceptions about these things between the church and other expectations.
I would imagine that this discussion has run its course and that we agree on the salient issues.
D.
________________________________
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu 29/09/2005 21:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Porches (was North Door)
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Yes, I agree completely: legislation never is proof of practice. But what struck me about the 13th-C legislation is that, first, it was not as specific about the location for the marriage blessing as I assumed it might be based on the later Sarum rubric, and, second, that there was room for regional variation. From my quick glance, several of the 13th-C statutes that mention it at all simply mandate that the place for solemnizing the marriage be "honest," "suitable," etc. No mention of church, much less church porch. Several include the formula for the exchange of vows in verba de presenti, which underscores the apparent main interest this legislation: to forward the (relatively) new idea of the consensual foundation of marriage and guard against clandestine unions.
I wonder to what extent the custom of marriage before the door of the church was guided partly by practical considerations of space. I'm clueless about what sort of crowds gathered for weddings, though I suspect it would be an important village occasion. If guests from the bride's and the groom's villages--assuming they married out of the neighborhood--attended, would the typical rural parish church have room for all of them inside? Given how small many pre-15th C English churches were, it might be a wee crowded inside. Does anyone know what the liturgists Durandus or John Beleth have to say about marriage custom?
Best,
John
-------------------------------------------------
John Shinners
Professor of Humanistic Studies
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, IN 46556
Office: (574) 284-4494
Fax: (574) 284-4716
----- Original Message -----
From: "Postles, Dr D.A." <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2005 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: [M-R] Porches (was North Door)
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> Agreed, of course. My comment was simply in response to the e-
> mail from John Shinners. I take your point completely.
> D.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious culture on behalf of Shannon McSheffrey
> Sent: Thu 29/09/2005 21:04
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Porches (was North Door)
>
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> Ah, yes, but just because a 13th-century statute mandates a location
> (ostio), doesn't mean that 15th-century people did it that way. I
> found that
> in various ways the practice of makign marriages in fifteenth-
> century London
> did not match either thirteenth-century statutes or in some ways
> the Sarum
> liturgy (there evidence suggests that in many cases the liturgy was
> simplified: the Sarum liturgy for a nuptial mass, for instance,
> suggeststhat there should be 4 clerks present, which was clearly
> often not even
> possible for ordinary people who had a hard enough time paying the
> priestand 1 clerk). People can make rules, but it doesn't mean
> that everyone
> follows them, especially when they're 200-year-old rules.
>
> Shannon
>
> Shannon McSheffrey
> Associate Professor and Graduate Program Director
> Department of History
> Concordia University
> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
> Montreal, QC CANADA H3G 1M8
>
> [log in to unmask]
> http://alcor.concordia.ca/~shannon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Postles, Dr
> D.A.
> Sent: September 29, 2005 3:05 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Porches (was North Door)
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> Seems fairly critical to me.
> D.
>
>
> Exeter (1287): "Cum autem matrimonium in facie ecclesie fuerit
> solennizandum, palam et in ostio ecclesie sacerdos interroget
> contrahentessi sibi invicem consentiant ab ipsis singillatim."
>
>
>
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