JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  September 2005

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION September 2005

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Real Presence

From:

Dennis Martin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:10:15 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

While it is true that the reality of Christ's presence is not sense-perceptible and many of the bleeding host miracles were declared frauds by those who investigated, I think one more layer of subtlety needs to be introduced here if we are to understand one aspect (not all aspects) of the bleeding host claims. Some of the bleeding hosts that have survived to this day have been tested for their sense-perceptible characteristics and it is claimed that in one case, at least, the molecular structure is that of human flesh, specifically heart tissue.

Theologically, while the nature of the bodily presence of CHrist is not sense-perceptible, for the sake of those of weak faith, as an exception that proves the rule, a miracle in which the non-sense-perceptible becomes sense-perceptible. Miracles (as I noted in a post about Boniface Ferrer's tract on miracles) are granted to strengthen the faith of their recipients. Of course, one must test carefully the claimed miracle by empirical observation to make sure it is not an illusion. Medieval folk were not able to run sophisticated tissue tests. The obvious fact that bleeding host claims were used for fraud both monetarily and politically was motivation enough to invoke the theological principle that the non-sense-perceptible real presence made the bleeding hosts extraordinary instances of what was already a miracle (substance without accompanying accidents). Under those circumstances, Aquinas and Nicholas of Cusa etc. were excercising commendable prudence in judging these claims false.

But did Aquinas absolutely rule out the possibility of a miracle in which the normally non-sense-perceptible becomes sense-perceptible? I would think that he would not have gone that far. Prudence might very well compel him to cast as much cold water as he could on the likelihood of the extra miracle, but did he rule it out absolutely?

For scholars of popular religion, it seems to me, the issue would be both the inherent risk involved in these claims and the prudent efforts by authorities to put the kabosh on them but also the entire question of the reasons people believed. Just as remarkable as the fact that some (and increasingly more) people in the later Middle Ages seemed to require this "extra" miracle in order to believe is the fact that for centuries most did not require it. Paying attention to both ends of the dynamic might actually get us a bit closer to understanding both the adherents of the bleeding host cults and those who developed strong Eucharistic devotion without this external aid.

Dennis Martin

>>> [log in to unmask] 9/16/2005 8:33 AM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Dear Kevin,

Most twelfth century theologians and all theologians in the
thirteenth century (at least after about 1230) would emphatically
deny that a consecrated host could bleed the real blood of Christ.
Aquinas, among others, is pretty snide about miracle hosts in general
(see Summa theologiae, Part III, Q. 76 art. 8). Transubstantiation
(in any of its different articulations) does not allow for any sensed
experience of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.
Actually, that's the point of transubstantiation; it is an attempt to
explain a real presence that is not available to the senses. I wrote
a long (and boring) explanation of transubstantiation and its several
forms in "The Dogma of Transubstantiation in the Middle Ages,"
Journal of Ecclesiastical History, vol. 45 (1994), 11-41. It's
probably dated by now, but it does summarize the opinions of the
theologians and canonists on the subject and so might be helpful to
you. I gave a paper this summer on the opinion of theologians about
miracle hosts and would be happy to send you a copy if you interested.

On Sep 16, 2005, at 8:37 AM, Eliana Corbari wrote:

> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
>
> Dear Kevin
> you may alrady know this classic:
> Corpus Christi :the Eucharist in late medieval culture by Miri Rubin.
> Cambridge : Cambridge University Press, 1991
>
> sincerely
>
> ---------------
> eli corbari
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> mimesis. Are there any books which can point me out to the doctrine
>
>> of > Real Presence and its sustained developments over the course of
>>
> the
>
>>> Middle Ages?
>>>
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Kevin Teo
>>
>>
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

May 2024
April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager