medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
It's been over 30 years since I last read NT apocrypha, but I recall there
are other apocryphal texts that refer to Saint Joseph, including some that
embellish the story in the Proto-Gospel of James. One of these says he was
married at 40 to someone other than Mary, and during 49 years of marriage he
had several children. He was widowed for a year, then was chosen for Mary
(age 12 or 13) by a miracle where his staff blossoms (the lily) and then the
dove flies out of it. (Perhaps _The Infancy Story of Thomas_?)
Stan Metheny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Swain" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Saint Joseph/lily/chastity
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> The text you refer to is the Protevangelium Jacobi,
> the Proto-Gospel of James. But this gospel says that
> out of Joseph's rod came a dove that rested on his
> head, not lilies, so is likely not the source of the
> icongraphy for Joseph.
>
> As for the "chastity" of Joseph, it almost certainly
> derives from the position that Joseph didn't ever have
> sexual relations with Mary, and if I recall my Jerome
> correctly, didn't have children according to that
> worthy because the reference to "brothers" and
> "sisters" of Jesus refers to "cousins", not brothers
> or half-brothers as the Protoevangelium tradition has
> it.
>
> Larry Swain
>
> --- Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> > religion and culture
> >
> > First, chastity and virginity are not synonymous. If
> > I may get personal, I
> > am a chaste married woman. Second, I *believe* Saint
> > Joe is depicted with a
> > lily because some apocryphal work/legend states that
> > he was chosen as Mary's
> > husband because, of all her suitors, he had the
> > staff/walking stick
> > (something made of wood) that miraculously sprouted
> > lilies and this
> > designated him as God's choice for Mary. I'm, as
> > always, ready to stand
> > corrected.
> > MG
> >
> > >From: John Wickstrom <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions
> > of medieval religious
> > > culture
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [M-R] saints who were fathers?
> > >Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 13:15:20 -0400
> > >
> > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > >I wonder if this is correct. My recollection is
> > that Joseph is often
> > >depicted (late medieval, modern images?) as holding
> > a lily, symbol of his
> > >chastity. The strong idea in the middle ages of the
> > Virgin's chastity
> > >likely
> > >extended to Joseph. The meaning of biblical
> > references to the "brothers" of
> > >Jesus continues to be argued: whether this means
> > biological siblings or
> > >"relatives". Traditionally Catholics argue the
> > latter while Protestants
> > >and
> > >secular scholars tend towards the former.
> > >JBW
> > >
> > >
> > >John B. Wickstrom
> > >Kalamazoo College
> > >[log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religious
> > >culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> > Behalf Of Bill East
> > >Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:19 AM
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [M-R] saints who were fathers?
> > >
> > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > >--- "John B. Wickstrom" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > > St Joseph? Well, his status as a biological
> > father is still argued
> > > > among
> > > > scholars and religious traditions, right?
> > > > JBW
> > >
> > >I was referring to his other children. Whether or
> > not, as a matter of
> > >historical fact, he had any, he is certainly
> > regarded in medieval
> > >tradition as having had children by a former
> > marriage; and that gets
> > >him into the list of saints who were fathers.
> > >
> > >Bill.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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