medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I think perhaps you are being a little unduly cynical about the motives of
the English kings (or am I unduly naive?) I do not think many of the people
whose arrests were requested would have lost their goods permanently.
Certainly in the period I know (15th century) this tool was used mainly for
the contumacious who would not appear in ecclesiastical courts when
summoned. Few of them, when they finally turned up would have suffered very
harsh punishment. I think the process was largely to the benefit of the
ecclesiastical courts (you may argue about whether you think they should
have had any authority), which seemed largely to have had power of citation
but not of arrest. How well it worked I do not know. I seem to remember a
case when a bishop was so frustrated by the failure of a sheriff to carry
out the requested arrest that he excommunicated the sheriff!
best Rosemary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Louis IX & excommunication
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Dr Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
> in England by the thirteenth century a bishop could request the royal
chancery to issue a writ ordering the local sheriff to capture and detain
persons who had remained obdurately excommunicate for more than 40 days.
sounds like the English king was acting in his own best interest, as opposed
to the French, who was acting like some sort of Saint or something.
"capture and detain" wasn't the Operative factor here, but rather, as
Joinville says,
"to compel them, ***by seizure of their possessions***"
typically, the English guy Siezes the Moment to smash & grab stuff which
wasn't nailed down --with the Blessing of Holy Mother Church, no less--
while
Louis' passing up this opportunity appears to me to be either a Saintly act
or, perhaps, one driven by other motives.
i wonder what the specific circumstances were which precipitated the
bishops'
initial request.
a bit late for the Cathars in the South --or was it?
perhaps there was some specific vassal (or faction of vassals) who was the
target of the Bishops' (or faction of Bishops) action?
though by Louis9's time the Capetian was in a much stronger position
viz-a-viz
his vassals than he was in the time of Louis7, it was in the nature of
middlevil Kingship that he was constantly playing factions among his major
subjects against one another, i should think.
c
"Lots of useless other data points just enlarge the consciousness of the
agrieved showing how particular the pain is."
--Burma Shave
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