medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I appreciate Dennis Martin's theological discussion of intercessory prayer.
The thrust of my inquiry was more historical: at what point do we have
evidence: in the form of a surviving prayer, for instance, that such
intercession was actually occurring in a customary way.
JBW
>-----Original Message-----
>From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Dennis Martin
>Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:09 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [M-R] Intercession of the saints
>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>and culture
>
>The short answer is "Immediately."
>
>If one believes that the person was so holy as to be in the
>presence of God, one may ask him or her to pray on one's
>behalf. (The request for intercession is not really a prayer
>to the putative saint but a request that the putative saint
>pray with the requester to Christ; the possibility of
>communication with the deceased in this manner is possible
>only because both the requester and the requesteee are in the
>communion of saints, that is, in the body of Christ--the
>mytery of the unity of fThellow believers is what connects the
>inhabitants of heaven and those of earth after the departure
>from earth--the power of Christ makes this possible, so
>communication with the dead is not a form of conjuring the
>dead which is forbidden in Scripture).
>
>Of course the person may not have directly entered God's
>presence (if not perfectly holy), so the putative saint is
>prayed to in a tentative way by those devoted to him or her.
>Martyrs directly enter God's presence, so in such cases
>requests for intercession may be addressed with confidence.
>In other cases they are tentative and private only. Since the
>1640s (Urban VIII) it is strictly forbidden to address formal
>liturgical intercession requests to anyone whose cause has not
>been investigated by the canonical procedures leading to
>beatification and canonization. Conducting formal liturgical
>veneration and requesting intercession in an official, formal
>capacity, Urban VIII decreed, would actually make impossible
>any future beatification or canonization of the person.
>
>The procedures in earlier centuries were less strict but even
>there, requests for intercession by someone who died in the
>reputation of sanctity would be addressed freely on a private
>basis, which constituted the beginning of an unofficial
>cultus. Beatification and canonization effectively simply
>make formal and official (by adding it to the liturgical
>calendar) such a private and unofficial cultus. Urban VIII
>left open the possiblity of adding people to the liturgical
>rolls on the basis of longstanding (centuries-long) unofficial
>cultus because proper investigation of the lives of people who
>lived a 1000 years ago was very difficult,so, if unbroken
>cultus could be established, it was accepted as a sort of
>grandfather clause.
>
>Thus, private requests are always permitted but formal
>liturgical cultus is forbidden.. Miracles that result from
>such private requests from devotesthen become potential
>evidence in an eventual investigation for beatification.
>Where someone was widely reputed to be of outstanding holines
>(Mother Teresa, for example) or even so reputed within the
>circle of his or her religious order or circle of devotes
>during his lifetime (Padre Pio), an association usually forms
>to act as a clearing house for reported miracles and other
>documentation to be eventually taken up by the formal
>investigation for beatification.
>
>When a formal cause is introduced (following a preliminary
>diocesan investigation), the person may then be called
>"Venerable So and So" and "Servant of God" but formal
>liturgical cultus is still prohibited.
>
>Thus, many people began requesting the intercession of John
>Paul II moments after his death was confirmed. Posthumous
>miracle reports I would assume have aleady begun flowing into
>to Rome--many of them probably unsubstantiatable, but some
>might eventually merit investigation).
>
>In short, all that is required to request the intercession of
>someone who has died a Christian, is the private belief that
>this person might be in heaven. If one had evidence that the
>person had died defiant of Christian faith, such requests
>would be inappropriate. But such requests always have an
>element of tentativeness about them, even if the person making
>them truly, with all assurance, is convinced the deceased is
>in heaven. His private confidence cannot be extended to
>anything more than that--private, personal belief.
>
>Dennis Martin
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 05/24/05 2:29 PM >>>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>and culture
>
>Dear Listmembers, one of my students again today came up with
>an interesting question that I pass on to you from the depths
>of my own ignorance: at what point does the intercession of
>saints begin? That is, at what point are the Christian dead no
>longer simply venerated as models of Christian life and death
>but begin to have prayers addressed to them, asking for favors
>and miracles, and the like?
>JBW
>
>
>
>
>John Wickstrom
>Department of History
>Kalamazoo College
>[log in to unmask]
>
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