Considering how fertile Clara was, it would have been a rather dangerous
chance to take I'd have thought.
best joanna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: Brahms poem
> The historians doubt they actually got it on, for no very good reason, as
> far as I can tell, but there's no doubt that they thought about it--a lot,
> as recorded in their passionate letters. They even talked about marriage,
> but decided not, for reasons of career. And during Schumann's insanity,
> while he was still at home, Brahms moved in. The difference in their ages
> would not have been a novelty for Brahms--his mother was 14 years older
> than his father.
>
> But trruth be told the line is probably there because of the rhyme
> "grolle/rolled." "Ich grolle nicht" is the title and first line of
> Sxchumann's setting of the Heine poem.
>
> For a long time, right into the 70s, it was assumed that Brahms died a
> virgin, tho he had several well-recorded crushes on various sopranos. We
> really don't know if any were consummated--he certrainly enjoyed the
> company of young women--a major motivation for all the a capella choral
> music. And we also know for sure that he hit the bordellos with some
> regularity.
>
> I love Brahms, especially the 2nd piano concerto, all the symphonies
> (especially the 4th, but I'm a sucker for a good passacaglia, and I love
> the way the entire piece is built out of a few motifs), the Fier Letzte
> Liede, the Alto Rhapsody (which reminds us how cheap it once was to rent a
> whole chorus. I have among others the Ferrier performance, incomparable,
> and the simply astonishing Marian Anderson. Both are essential), the
> Double
> Concerto (talk about erotic), and the cello sonatas--well, all the
> sonatas.
> But I'm a lot more likely to turn to Bach, Dufay, Josquin or Monteverdi,
> or
> to late Beethoven or Mozart or Chopin (I could go on). If one has to have
> hierarchies, if we give Bach, say, an A Brahms gets an A-.
>
> When I really need to bathe in Late Romantic eroticism I put on the
> Rachmaninoff Cello Sonata. My ancient copy of Tortelier was the most
> satisfying I've heard, but it's been played to the point of unplayability,
> and I haven't been able to find a replacement--it's apparently not on CD.
> If anyone has a copy I'd be eternally grateful. The Chopin was on the flip
> side. But there's a very fine Starker performance.
>
> A long answer to a short question. Blame it on the extra coffee.
>
> Mark
>
>
> At 11:58 AM 5/20/2005, you wrote:
>>Fascinating and richly contrapuntal poem, Mark -- thanks for posting it.
>>
>>But do you have any actual factual (oh dear!) justification for that line
>>'while Brahms and Clara rolled in the next room'? Everything I've read
>>about
>>them reckoned that so far as could be known they never actually
>>consummated
>>any sort of love together. He certainly later proposed to one of her
>>daughters, Julie I think it was, and she turned him down.
>>
>>best joanna
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 4:24 PM
>>Subject: Brahms poem
>>
>>
>>>A propos, I poem I wrote it must be 30 years ago, very Late Romantic,
>>>never
>>>published. It takes an effort to remember the person who wrote it. As
>>>usual, warning re: format distortions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>BRAHMS AND MARVELL
>>>
>>>Brahms, we know, haunted bordellos, loved sopranos
>>>and lady pianists, bathed
>>>in post-coital sadness. Ich grolle nicht
>>>wrote Schumann raving
>>>while Brahms and Clara rolled in the next room. Marvell,
>>>the scholars tell us, on the other hand,
>>>died virginal his women
>>>figures of speech. His verses
>>>argue otherwise
>>>his mourning nymph not marble
>>>but flesh
>>>quivering in the shock of loss a sexual loss. Or portraying his king
>>>as
>>>rapist. Always
>>>the awareness of pressure in his own groin
>>>the garden itself
>>>an orgy.
>>> Two paradises 'twere in one
>>> To live in paradise alone,
>>>the passionate man's renunciation of passion for his self's sake. Brahms
>>>is more explicit about his motives he writes to Clara
>>>he shall never marry, his art requires it. Love
>>>so comforting you lose yourself in it the self-absorbtion that the
>>>act requires constantly
>>>intruded upon by domestic necessity. Society
>>> is all but rude
>>> To this delicious solitude.
>>> I keep hoping
>>>for my own solution that
>>>the love of life and its passing
>>>can live together in my body with longing,
>>>and with beauty,
>>>who enters alone
>>>like the moist girl from behind the curtains of my mind's castle the
>>>constant
>>>adulteress. I have seen her,
>>>her feet approaching over the bare stones
>>>hidden within me. How
>>>to conduct my life
>>>with such a secret?
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