Ahhh
Fair point
Sally
>From: George MacDonald Ross <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Plagiarism <[log in to unmask]>,
George MacDonald Ross <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:26:20 +0100
>
>The site that was part of the experiment made the same boast.
>
>George.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Plagiarism [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of sally
>jones
>Sent: 29 April 2005 00:11
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>
>
>But the site boasting 'undetectable cheating' (www.elizabethhall.com)
>was not part of the experiment.
>
>
>
>&gt;From: George MacDonald Ross &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
>&gt;Reply-To: Plagiarism &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;,
>George MacDonald Ross &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
>&gt;To: [log in to unmask]
>&gt;Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>&gt;Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:40:28 +0100
>&gt;
>&gt;But as we know from Oppenheim's experiment, the writers of these
>essays &gt;sometimes plagiarise. &gt; &gt;George. &gt;
&gt;-----Original
>Message-----
>&gt;From: Plagiarism [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>sally &gt;jones
>&gt;Sent: 26 April 2005 23:27
>&gt;To: [log in to unmask]
>&gt;Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>&gt;
>&gt;
>&gt;George
>&gt;
>&gt;No, I did mean 'plagiarism proof'. The cheat sites guarantee the
>work is &gt;original and thus if the work was plagiarised would open
>themselves up &gt;to lawsuits. &gt; &gt;Sally &gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;From: George MacDonald Ross
>&amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;Reply-To: Plagiarism
>&amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;gt;,
>&gt;George MacDonald Ross
&amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;To: [log in to unmask]
>&gt;&amp;gt;Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:57:28 +0100
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;Sally,
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;Do you mean 'detection' proof in the last sentence?
If so,
>one of &gt;the &amp;gt;solutions is to viva students on their
assessed
>work. &amp;gt; &gt;&amp;gt;George. &amp;gt;
&amp;gt;-----Original
>Message-----
>&gt;&amp;gt;From: Plagiarism [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On
>Behalf Of &gt;sally &amp;gt;jones
>&gt;&amp;gt;Sent: 24 April 2005 20:45
>&gt;&amp;gt;To: [log in to unmask]
>&gt;&amp;gt;Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;George
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;I am interested in making assessments 'cheat-proof'
which
>would &gt;include &amp;gt;'plagiarism'. Hiring a cheat site
makes it
>plagiarism proof &gt;if the &amp;gt;person does a good job.
&amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;Sally &amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;From: George MacDonald Ross
>&gt;&amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Reply-To: Plagiarism
>&gt;&amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;gt;,
>&gt;&amp;gt;George MacDonald Ross
>&amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;To: [log in to unmask]
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:41:00
+0100
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Sally,
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;I think we are edging
>towards agreement. Exams can be &gt;designed &amp;gt;better
>&amp;amp;gt;than they have been in the past. &gt;Nevertheless,
there are
>many &amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;alternative ways of assessing
&gt;students
>which can be made more or &amp;gt;less
&amp;amp;gt;plagiarism-proof,
>&gt;and we shouldn't abandon innovative methods &amp;gt;of
>&amp;amp;gt;assessment &gt;simply because of a panic about
plagiarism.
>&amp;amp;gt; &amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;George.
&gt;&amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;gt;-----Original Message-----
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;From: Plagiarism
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>On
>&gt;Behalf Of &amp;gt;sally &amp;amp;gt;jones
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Sent: 24 April 2005 16:21
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;To: [log in to unmask]
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Subject: Re: Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;George
&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Exams that test problem-solving
skills would
>test &gt;independent &amp;gt;thinking. &amp;amp;gt;Where the
exam is
>based on a case &gt;study approach, perhaps &amp;gt;with a
>&amp;amp;gt;pre-issued case study, &gt;students would be
encouraged to
>&amp;gt;develop themes. &amp;amp;gt;
&gt;&amp;amp;gt;They would, of
>course, be harder to mark than &amp;gt;exams testing &gt;memory
>&amp;amp;gt;skills, but you certainly would not be able to
&amp;gt;pay
>&gt;someone to sit the &amp;amp;gt;exam for you - hopefully!
>&amp;amp;gt; &gt;&amp;amp;gt;Sally &amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;From: George
MacDonald Ross
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Reply-To:
Plagiarism
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;amp;gt;,
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;George MacDonald Ross
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;To:
[log in to unmask]
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Subject: Re:
Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Date: Sat, 23
Apr 2005 21:09:49
>+0100
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Sally,
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Exams aren't
&gt;plagiarism-proof,
>because some students have &amp;gt;good &amp;amp;gt;enough
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;memories to regurgitate what they have
learned
>&amp;gt;from &gt;sources &amp;amp;gt;other than
&amp;amp;amp;gt;their
>own thinking (including &gt;what &amp;gt;they have been taught
>&amp;amp;gt;by their &amp;amp;amp;gt;teachers - &gt;and I
tell my
>&amp;gt;students that I am a secondary &amp;amp;gt;source like
any
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;other). &amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;Exams are a useful form &gt;of
&amp;amp;gt;assessment
>where &amp;gt;memorisation of facts is at
&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;a premium,
>but for most &amp;amp;gt;other &amp;gt;purposes they fail
&gt;to reward
>the &amp;amp;amp;gt;independent thinking skills
&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;we
>are &gt;trying to develop in our students, &amp;amp;amp;gt;and
they
>encourage &gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;students to regard
education as
>nothing more than &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;cramming &amp;gt;for
>&amp;amp;gt;exams. It's crazy to undo all the &gt;valuable work
of the
>last &amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;few &amp;amp;gt;decades in
&gt;devising
>more valid forms of assessment, &amp;gt;simply because
>&gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;of a panic about cheating. I
don't use
>exams &amp;gt;at &gt;all, and because of &amp;amp;gt;the
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;way I teach and set my
&gt;&amp;gt;assignments,
>plagiarism is the least of &amp;amp;gt;my
&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;problems.
>My &amp;gt;biggest problem is to wean students from &gt;the exam
>&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;mentality, &amp;gt;and to get
them to think
>for &gt;themselves. &amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;George.
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;-----Original Message-----
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;From: Plagiarism
>&gt;[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>&gt;On
>&gt;&amp;gt;Behalf Of &amp;amp;gt;sally
&amp;amp;amp;gt;jones
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Sent: 23 April
2005 19:44
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;To:
[log in to unmask]
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Subject: Re:
Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;All you have to do is
&gt;make the
>qualification 100% by exam. &amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;It's really that simple.
>&amp;amp;amp;gt; &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;(As I
&amp;gt;believe Herriot Watt
>do
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;already) &amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt; &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;From: George &amp;amp;gt;MacDonald Ross
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Reply-To:
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Plagiarism
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;amp;gt;,
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; George
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;MacDonald Ross
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;lt;[log in to unmask]&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;To:
>[log in to unmask]
&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;Subject: Response to Reddy
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;Date: Fri, 22
>Apr 2005 09:55:17 &gt;+0100 &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;I like Mike's account of the student
>&amp;gt;presentation. I &gt;don't &amp;amp;gt;think anyone
>&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;would
>&gt;&amp;gt;object to what he did, unless he
&amp;amp;gt;pretended that
>the &gt;materials he &amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;used were
>his own. From what &gt;&amp;amp;gt;Mike says, he put a
&amp;gt;lot of
>his own &amp;amp;amp;gt;thinking &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;into the &amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;presentation.
>&amp;amp;amp;gt; &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;As for Sally's &amp;gt;idea, it is
&gt;similar to
>&amp;amp;gt;one I had myself a couple of &amp;amp;amp;gt;years
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;ago (even
though I
>&amp;amp;gt;didn't get round &gt;to doing it at &amp;gt;the
time). This
>was &amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;to write &gt;a
&amp;amp;gt;short
>guide for &amp;gt;students on 'How to Plagiarise
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Successfully'. &amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;The
>&gt;subtext would be that it's less trouble and far more
>&amp;gt;rewarding &gt;&amp;amp;gt;to &amp;amp;amp;gt;do
&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;the work yourself. &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;I also agree
>&gt;&amp;amp;gt;that it's a zero sum game for
&amp;gt;teachers and
>students to &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;compete
>&amp;amp;gt;with each other &amp;gt;for ever &gt;more
sophisticated
>methods of cheating &amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;and detection. If courses and
assessments
>are properly &gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;designed, and
&amp;amp;amp;gt;the
>&amp;amp;amp;gt; &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;learning culture is
&amp;gt;right,
>the question &amp;amp;gt;of &gt;cheating should arise only
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;in &amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;exceptional circumstances.
>&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt; &amp;amp;amp;gt;George.
&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt; &gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;********************************
>****************
>&gt;************
>&gt;&amp;gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;***
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;**
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
&amp;amp;amp;gt;You are
>subscribed to the JISC &gt;Plagiarism mailing &amp;gt;list. To
>&amp;amp;gt;Unsubscribe, &amp;amp;amp;gt;change
&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;your &amp;gt;subscription options, or access
>&gt;&amp;amp;gt;list archives, visit &amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/
>PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;********************************
>****************
>&gt;************
>&gt;&amp;gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;***
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;**
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;********************************
>****************
>&gt;************
>&gt;&amp;gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;* You are
subscribed to the JISC
>Plagiarism &gt;mailing list. To
>&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;Unsubscribe, change your
>&gt;subscription options, or access &amp;gt;list
&amp;amp;gt;archives,
>&gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;visit
>&amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;********************************
>****************
>&gt;************
>&gt;&amp;gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;*
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;********************************
>****************
>&gt;************
>&gt;&amp;gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;*****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;You are
subscribed to the JISC
>Plagiarism &gt;mailing list. To
&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Unsubscribe, change
>&amp;amp;amp;gt;your &gt;subscription options, or access
&amp;gt;list
>&amp;amp;gt;archives, visit
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.h
>tml
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;amp;gt;********************************
>****************
>&gt;************
>&gt;&amp;gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;*****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;************************************************
>************
>&gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;*
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;You are subscribed to the JISC
Plagiarism
>mailing list. To &gt;&amp;gt;Unsubscribe, &amp;amp;gt;change
your
>subscription options, or access &gt;list &amp;gt;archives,
visit
>&gt;&amp;amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;************************************************
>************
>&gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;*
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;************************************************
>************
>&gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;*****
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;You are subscribed to the JISC
Plagiarism
>mailing list. To &gt;&amp;gt;Unsubscribe, change
&amp;amp;gt;your
>subscription options, or access &gt;list &amp;gt;archives,
visit
>&gt;&amp;amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;************************************************
>************
>&gt;********
>&gt;&amp;gt;*****
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;************************************************************
>********
>&gt;****
>&gt;&amp;gt;*
>&gt;&amp;gt;You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing
list. To
>&gt;Unsubscribe, &amp;gt;change your subscription options, or
access
>list &gt;archives, visit
>&amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;&amp;gt;************************************************************
>********
>&gt;****
>&gt;&amp;gt;*
>&gt;&amp;gt;
>&gt;&amp;gt;************************************************************
>********
>&gt;*****
>&gt;&amp;gt;You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing
list. To
>&gt;Unsubscribe, change &amp;gt;your subscription options, or
access
>list &gt;archives, visit
>&amp;gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;&amp;gt;************************************************************
>********
>&gt;*****
>&gt;
>&gt;********************************************************************
>****
>&gt;*
>&gt;You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To
>Unsubscribe, &gt;change your subscription options, or access list
>archives, visit &gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;********************************************************************
>****
>&gt;*
>&gt;
>&gt;********************************************************************
>*****
>&gt;You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To
>Unsubscribe, change &gt;your subscription options, or access list
>archives, visit &gt;http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>&gt;********************************************************************
>*****
>
>************************************************************************
>*
>You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To Unsubscribe,
>change your subscription options, or access list archives, visit
>http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>************************************************************************
>*
>
>*************************************************************************
>You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To Unsubscribe,
change
>your subscription options, or access list archives, visit
>http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
>*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To Unsubscribe, change
your subscription options, or access list archives, visit
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html
*************************************************************************
|