medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Quoting richard landes <[log in to unmask]>:
>> > VKI: I agree that Wulfstan saw the Christian Church Age as the
> > Millennium and
> > saw it as coming to a close about 1000 AD not at all beginning in
> > 1,000 AD as
> > present day premillenialists saw the possibility of a millennium
> > beginning in
> > 2,000 AD. But why does this make him apocalyptic and not millennial?
> > This is
> > hair splitting.
>
> i beg to differ. historians, anthropologists, even the church fathers
> who denounced the subversive ideology, understand "millennial" only to
> refer to expectations of collective salvation on this earth, in the
> flesh, a messianic kingdom traditionally lasting 1000 years (hence,
> millennialism, of which messianism is a subset of millennial movements
> led by a messianic figure).
>
VKI: I believe your use of the term 'millennial' is a radical one and does not
agree fully with any that I have read. I have no idea who the historians,
anthropologists and church fathers you refer to are. In general millennialism
does refer to a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, but postmillennialists do
not believe this means that Christ is physically present or that there is a
collective salvation. Your use of 'subversive ideology' referring to
millennialism, makes it appear that you have an axe to grind. I see nothing
subversive about traditional postmillennialism, but rather find it to be
consistent with what a lot of people in our day believe--the world will get
better and better. Even Ronald Reagan believed this and said so.
Post-millennialism can be Christian or non-christian. The Christian version
believes that the world becomes better because of Christ working in the world
through the Holy Spirit and Christian principles.
> if you think this is splitting hairs, you need to re-enter a world
> where ecclesiastical authorities held millennialism as taboo, with
> grave consequences for those who broke that taboo.
>
VKI: I missed this place somewhere in my education.
> > They were being apoclyptic specifically because they were
> > millenialists--today they would be called post-millenial by those who
> > classify
> > various millenialists.
>
> as one of those who classifies these movts, i permit myself to correct
> you. the pax dei was post-millennialist -- ie the millennial kingdom
> is built by divinely inspired human agents and only after
> (post-millennium) does xt come again. wulfstan, aelfric, other
> churchmen who believed they lived at the apocalyptic moment and who's
> writings are preserved, are careful to be eschatological (last
> judgment, heaven and hell, no earthly salvation)not millennial of
> any variety.
VKI: As you point out, the term 'post-millennial' refers to the
belief in Christ's return, as to whether or not that would come before the
millennial kingdom (premillennial), after the millennial kingdom
postmillennial), or that there is no doctrine of a millennial kingdom in the
Bible (amillennial). Wulfstan, like other early Christians believed that the
Christian Church Era was in fact the millennium--based on teachings like those
in Revelation.
>
> somewhere, i'm not sure where, i have suggested that the pax dei of
> 1033 was an early manifestation of post-millennialism and the
> mass-pilgrimage to jerusalem of the same year was either eschatological
> or pre-millennial (jesus is coming back, be at the center of the cosmos
> for the resurrection of the dead). the desire of pilgrims not to
> return is a good sign of such motivations.
VKI: Okay, somewhere here we agree. But we seem to be using the terms
differently. Could it be the term, 'posttribulationism' has effected your
understanding of postmillennialism? I am certain, absolutely, that you are
right about an early manifestation of postmillennialism, but I see many of
these. I do not believe that premillennialism showed up this early. I could
be wrong on this (I said that? Yes, I did.). The postmillennial beliefs of
this time saw Christ's return bringing in a pax dei as you pointed out earlier.
SO, couldn't this all just be aspects of postmillennialism? I am interested in
why you would say premillennialism.
>
> > Please e-mail me the titles of the two books you talk
> > about.
>
> VKI: Thank you I will check them out.
>
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