medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks for a thorough thrashing, Christopher. I'll get back to you
after my wounds heal. yrs, tom ault
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:35:30 -0500
Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>culture
>
>From: Cecil T Ault <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> Quite right! The term Gothic came into being much later as a term
>>of
> contempt by those who found it completely out of sync with the exact
> proportions, or so thought to be, of the Renaissanc style.
>
>
> i believe that the best (and certainly most exhaustive) survey of
>the
> historiography of "Gothic" as a Construct is Paul Frankl's _The
>Gothic:
> literary sources and interpretations through eight centuries_
>(Princeton U.P.,
> 1960), 916 [!!] pp.
>
> i thought that there was a revised edition of this but can't seem to
>find it.
>
>
> as far as i am aware there is nothing similar for "Romanesque",
>which is, in
> any event, a much more recent Construct.
>
>>As for it being the first Gothic church, one could argue, for others,
>>as
> southern France is full of churches of late Romanesque (e.g. Autun)
>
>
> Autun ?
>
> you mean St. Lazare of Autun, of Gislebertus Fame?
>
> in *Southern* France??
>
> Central Burgundy = Southern France ????
>
> "late" "Romanesque" ??
>
> 1130s-40s = "late" "Romanesque" ????
>
> is this more Bannisterianesque terminology, Tom?
>
>> which look very Gothic for their pointed arches, high ceilings,
> facades
>
> yes, if you define "Gothic" by those criteria, then any building
>which has
> them will "look very Gothic".
>
> i note that the "ceilings" ["vaults" in art hysterical Jargon] of
>Cluny III
> are as high as most non-cathedral "Gothic" buildings.
>
> and virtually all buildings have "facades"; though some have more
>facades than
> others.
>
>>and even flying buttresses
>
> "flying buttresses" ??
>
> at Autun ????
>
> or on any other "Southern" French "late" "Romanesque" church ?????
>
> picture me, please.
>
>>but the essential features of Suger's addition was the opening up of
>>the
> interior spaces through the new, Gothic engineering.
>
> not much of a sense of "interior space" in Suger's Westwork; but the
>layout of
> the choir and, especially, the apsidial chapels does, indeed,
>represent a
> somewhat different "solution" to the problems of spatial
>articulation in what
> is, after all, the most complex part of a middlevil church.
>
> and, to a certain extent, this was made possible because of "the
>new, Gothic
> engineering".
>
>>Anyhow, St. Denis is accorded the distinction of having been the
>>first Gothic
> church by those who study architectural styles.
>
> traditionally, and according to the over-simplified Paradigm used,
> particularly, in elementary pedagogy, yes.
>
>>The distinction is not an easy one;
>
> no, it isn't.
>
> especially if one is interested in avoiding both Circularity in
>one's
> reasoning and being Tyranized by one's own Construct.
>
>>in the 19th century it was decided that a Gothic church would have:
>> 1-pointed arches,
>> 2-rib vaults,
>> 3-flying buttresses.
>
> one way to construct one's Construct, certainly.
>
>> This leaves out domestic architecture entirely.
>
> a good point.
>
> it also leaves out a multiplicity of buildings from the very late
>11th c. and
> first half of the 12th c. which have been lost to us *without a
>trace*,
> leaving only St. Suger's work with which to establish our Circular
>Paradigm.
>
>>Also, there remains the problem of Norman architecture. Durham
>>cathedral has
> all three of the above (including #3 though you can't see them from
>below) and
> it is still Romanesque.
>
> if you define it that way, yes.
>
>>Alas, it has load bearing walls. So, it goes.
>
> indeed it does.
>
> on and on and on.
>
>> The Gothic actually was the last great effort to achieve height and
> light using traditional materials.
>
> ?
>
>>Not until we get steel and abolish load bearing walls altogether
>
> ?????
>
> i can see neither steel nor "load bearing walls" here :
>
> http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapelle01.jpg
>
> http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapelle08.jpg
>
> http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapell2.jpg
>
> http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/arch/gothic/chapelle05.jpg
>
> nor here :
>
> http://romanes.free.fr//Saint_Germer_de_Fly_0005-2.jpg
>
> http://romanes.free.fr//Saint_Germer_de_Fly_0004-2.jpg
>
> the use of steel rather than stone would make a trivial difference
>here, i
> would submit.
>
> far more significant for a workable definition of the Construct of
>"Gothic"
> would be a factor which your too-materialistically oriented
>secondary sources
> seem to have overlooked.
>
> the "transparent rationality" present here :
>
> http://romanes.free.fr//Saint_Germer_de_Fly_0005-2.jpg
>
> wherein all the significant elements of the building are made
>visible from the
> pavement to the keystones --a complex (yet rationally transparent)
>structure
> of wall responds which "telegraphs" what is to be found above, at
>the highest
> levels of the building.
>
> i think that, in this respect, i'll take Panofsky
>
> Erwin Panofsky, _Gothic architecture and scholasticism_ (New York:
>Meridian
> Books, 1957) xvi, 156 pp.
> [available on-line to subscribing institutions here:
> http://ets.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=acls;cc=acls;idno=heb01070.0001.001;view=toc
> ]
>
> over Fletcher, any day.
>
> even though there has never been a more impassioned Champion of St.
>Suger than
> was Panofsky : "Thus Early Scholasticism was born at the same moment
>and in
> the same environment in which Early Gothic architecture was born in
>Suger's
> Saint-Denis." (p.4)
>
>>I'm not sure that the very high stuff we see in the big cities
> is any improvement over Wells or Chartres.
>
> well, to my eye, Chartes is every bit as much a "Romanesque"
>building as it is
> a "Gothic" one.
>
> but, then, what the hell do i know about it?
>
> i just make this stuff up as i go along.
>
> best from here,
>
> christopher
>
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