>From: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:54:13 +0000
>
>>From: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:43:04 -0500
>>
>> Dear Jorge,
>>
>> do enlighten me, "scientifically and practically",
>> how my arguments are "anti americanism"?
>>
>> I'm all ears.
>>
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>>From: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>BCC to: Subject: Re: The Shakespeare
>>Tragedy
>>Date sent: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 11:58:09 +0000
>>
>> > That stupid antiamericanism is the last shelter for the far left, once
>>all
>> > your arguments have been refuted scientifically and practically. But
>>you
>> > should keep and take care of your old ideological phantoms, winter is
>>coming
>> > and they can cold could bring fatal consequences for them.
>> > But, I am disapointed with you.
>> > So you dont recognize your hostility towards your neighbours?
>> > Are you really a marxist or what?
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >Reply-To: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >To: [log in to unmask]
>> > >Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > >Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 03:06:02 -0500
>> > >
>> > >Tim writes:
>> > >
>> > > "you read more into my comments than I would think
>> > >supportable.".
>> > >
>> > > I would say, in fact, that your response below indicates exactly
>> > >what I suggested: That you think primarily in terms of how the
>> > >elections impacts *America*, in the narrow, middle class,
>> > >eurocentric sense of the word.
>> > >
>> > ><<<<However, I *will* say that regardless of
>> > > > your political outlook, the USA presidential election was
>> > >conducted and
>> > > > peacefully settled according to democratic principles.>>>
>> > >
>> > > Your so-called "democratic" principles are grounded in a system
>> > >that priviledges the rich AND/OR the politically connected at the
>> > >expense of the rest. By rich I mean having Scrooge McDuck like
>> > >pockets. Poltical connectness in the U.S. requires the type of clout
>> > >that would enable someone to rise from a ragged upbringing in
>> > >Arkansas to being elected President of the United States. The
>> > >latter *only* occurs by being attached to one of the "two" main
>> > >political parties., both of which are deeply entwined with the 5 % or
>> > >so of the population who controls the economy.
>> > >
>> > >What happens for virtually all "independent" candidate in the U.S.
>> > >lacking in the funds to support their campaign is that they are
>> > >barred from the TV and radio airwaves. This since the TV stations
>> > >are controlled by big business or rich people who aren't interested
>> > >in supporting candidates not alligned to the "two" main
>> > >representatives of the rich.
>> > >
>> > >Lacking in money or political connectsion leaves one without the
>> > >funds necessary to get a message across to the voting public -
>> > >exactly what a third candidate like Nader -- by no stretch of the
>> > >imagination a poor guy -- faced in this recent election and exactly
>> > >why a system, such as this, precludes any real possibility of
>> > >actual "choices" between candidates.
>> > >
>> > > Your beloved racist, classist so-called "democratic" system also
>> > >either prohibits by law, or makes it virtually impossible for, a nice
>> > >chunk of your population to even vote.
>> > >
>> > >What a pathetic excuse for a democracy!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Communicate your discontent about USA politics and foreign
>> > >policy all
>> > > > you like; that is or ought to be your privilege.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >Translation: You can criticize my country but it means you're my
>> > >enemy.
>> > >
>> > >So typical of the seige mentality that afflicts the majority of
>> > >Americans.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Subject: RE: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > >Date sent: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:03:37 -0500
>> > >From: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >To: "David Quarter" <[log in to unmask]>,
>> > > <[log in to unmask]>
>> > >
>> > > > Well, all I can say is that I think you have read more into my
>>comment
>> > > > than I would think supportable. However, I *will* say that
>>regardless of
>> > > > your political outlook, the USA presidential election was conducted
>>and
>> > > > peacefully settled according to democratic principles. In my book,
>>if an
>> > > > election is democratically held and an outcome then occurs as the
>>will
>> > > > of the people (whether or not I might agree with that outcome),
>>then
>> > > > that settles it.
>> > > >
>> > > > Communicate your discontent about USA politics and foreign policy
>>all
>> > > > you like; that is or ought to be your privilege.
>> > > >
>> > > > Tim
>> > > >
>> > > > Timothy Lillie, PhD
>> > > > Associate Professor
>> > > > The University of Akron
>> > > > Zook Hall 322
>> > > > Akron OH 55325-4205
>> > > > 330-972-6746 (voice)
>> > > > 330-972-5209 (fax
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: David Quarter [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 12:31 AM
>> > > > To: Lillie,Timothy H; [log in to unmask]
>> > > > Cc: [log in to unmask]
>> > > > Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm *somewhat perplexed* by Tim's statement that:
>> > > >
>> > > > Why are they [the Mirror] so
>> > > > > thin-skinned at a democratic (there are, so far at least, very
>>few
>> > > > > reported problems in voting) outcome?
>> > > >
>> > > > Pexplexed in the sence that the statement's hard to rectify with
>>the
>> > > > position of someone claiming allegiance to the social model,
>> > > > "somewhat" in that it is less hard to fathom when seen in the
>> > > > context of it being said by an American.
>> > > >
>> > > > AT least, the impression I got of the social model -- someone
>> > > > please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that the political is never
>> > > > divorced from the social. The two are seen as connected. Yet the
>> > > > impression I get of your statement, Tim, is quite the opposite:
>>that
>> > > > what happens in the U.S. only matters. That, for you, the human
>> > > > (social) consequences of the U.S. (political) elections is only to
>>be
>> > > > interpreted within the confines of the U.S. state, divorced from
>>its
>> > > > impact on the rest of the world. What you label, the "democatric
>> > > > outcome" for the U.S. should supercede all other concerns.
>> > > >
>> > > > Not that I imagine most citizens outside the U.S would in principle
>> > > > be against this idea. The notion of the American people/America
>> > > > being content solely with their own democratic outcomes would for
>> > > > most be a welcome breath of fresh air...surely, something to make
>> > > > Osama ecstatic about, that is, of course, if it were indeed the
>> > > > pattern. Alas, this couldn't be further from the usual method of
>> > > > comportment of the U.S state. The fact is today, a few wealthy
>> > > > states, lead by the U.S. as self annointed "leader of the free
>>world",
>> > > > makes decisions which generally affect the rest of the world
>> > > > citizens, the majority in fact, in a negative way.
>> > > >
>> > > > Take Iraq, for example. Since the U.S., along with the British et
>>al.,
>> > > > first turned against Saddam Hussein (formerly a client of your
>> > > > country) an estimated 1.6 mllion Iraqis have been killed. They
>>have
>> > > > died b/c of 10 years of vicious, brutal sanctions imposed on them
>> > > > under the reign of the father of your currently-elected president,
>> > > > sanctions which were then enthusiastly tightened under your
>> > > > subsequent president's (Clinton's) watch. And, in case you forgot,
>> > > > since Bush junior's took the decision to invade and occupy Iraq,
>> > > > countless more Iraqi people have died.
>> > > >
>> > > > More generally, billions of human beings are affected each an every
>> > > > day by decisions taken on your country's behalf -- from as far
>> > > > away regions as South America all the way to the far east. For
>> > > > example, the farmers of India forced off their land by your -GMO
>> > > > multinationals;
>> > > >
>> > > > ; The millions of Africans brutalized by military dictatorships or
>> > > > leadership supported by your government (often by way of the CIA),
>> > > > people who, in their state of suffering, have been denied basic
>> > > > resources such as shelter and medicine, i.e., resources which
>> > > > western countries, but, more recently, cheifly your own
>> > > > government., either refuse to share with Africans or forcefully
>>steal
>> > > > from them under the cloak of corporate "exporting" to the west.
>> > > >
>> > > > There are many more examples to list.
>> > > >
>> > > > What I would argue is that as long as the world continues to be
>> > > > affected adversely by the policies carried in the name of the U.S
>> > > > state, it seems only uncumbent upon us, as our democratic duty
>> > > > as citizens outside the U.S. (as well as for Americans who oppose
>> > > > the system) to communicate, by whatever means possible, our
>> > > > discontent toward your country's cherised "democratic outcomes".
>> > > >
>> > > > DOQ
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Date sent: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:58:23 -0500
>> > > > Send reply to: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > > > From: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> > > > Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > > >
>> > > > > I'm standing a bit outside all this, since my connection to the
>> > > > > British world of disability studies has recently been weaker than
>>it
>> > > > > once was but it seems to me that the discussion is likely a good
>>one
>> > > > > if it results in a bit more civility in discussion of competing
>>views.
>> > > >
>> > > > > Of course, it likely will not seem that way to the person or
>>persons
>> > > > > who are personally savaged and I *know* that many
>>diversity-sensitive
>> > > > > and inclusionary folks are VERY thin skinned when they feel they
>>are
>> > > > > being criticized. Their immediate response, in my view, has been
>>to
>> > > > > cry victim and demand an apology...while feeling that their
>>critiques,
>> > > >
>> > > > > regardless of how personal they are are somehow justified.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Why do I mention this here? Because of the headline Bob refers
>>to in
>> > > > > the Daily Mirror figuratively weeping over the "dumbness" of
>> > > > > fifty-nine million Americans in choosing someone not acceptable,
>> > > > > apparently, to the Daily Mirror. I don't know the Mirror's
>>politics
>> > > > > but from the reported headline they are obviously left of
>>center.....
>> > > > > Why are they so thin-skinned at a democratic (there are, so far
>>at
>> > > > > least, very few reported problems in voting) outcome? The answer
>>might
>> > > >
>> > > > > be: because they think that people who don't share their view,
>>like
>> > > > > those attacking Shakespeare personally, are simply stupid and
>>evil.
>> > > > > Tell that often enough to someone and that person stops listening
>>to
>> > > > > you.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So be careful of how critiques are framed: even righteous
>>liberals
>> > > > > (and conservatives, for that matter, who in my view are similarly
>> > > > > constructed) can be vicious and bigoted when *their* precious
>>views
>> > > > > are critiqued.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Timothy Lillie, PhD
>> > > > > Associate Professor
>> > > > > The University of Akron
>> > > > > Zook Hall 322
>> > > > > Akron OH 55325-4205
>> > > > > 330-972-6746 (voice)
>> > > > > 330-972-5209 (fax
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
>> > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob
>> > > > > Williams-Findlay
>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:45 AM
>> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > > > > Subject: The Shakespeare Tragedy
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I find myself strangely caught between Shirley's world and
>>Havor's.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Early this week Tom and I had an exchange of words; my posting on
>>the
>> > > > > List concerning his Ouch article was detailed and reasoned, I
>>felt. On
>> > > >
>> > > > > Ouch itself, I admit I reacted from the gut and penned off a
>>short,
>> > > > > journalistic style sound-bite response.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Tom characterised this as "personal abuse" and suggested I
>>should've
>> > > > > focused on his "views"; my retort was that I believe a person's
>>style
>> > > > > of delivery is as much a part of the debate as are the views the
>> > > > > individual expresses. I, therefore, stood by my decision to
>> > > > > characterise Tom as behaving like a Victorian Headmaster when he
>> > > > > addresses the Disabled People's Movement.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The problem is where do you draw the line? I hear what Shirley is
>> > > > > saying; but am I being hypocritical by saying that I think she
>>was
>> > > > > unwise to voice it in the manner that she has?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Today, the British newspaper, the Daily Mirror, ran the headline
>> > > > > something
>> > > > > like:
>> > > > > Are 59,000 Americans that Dumb?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I believe this is no different; my thought processes went there,
>>yet
>> > > > > the price of liberty requires us to accept the challenge of the
>> > > > > unthinkable.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Personally, I have distanced myself from Tom's views because many
>> > > > > contradiction some of the core values I have; no doubt what I do
>>and
>> > > > > say outrage some people also.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It's hard not to be outraged and to want to scrap with those who
>>you
>> > > > > feel threaten or undermine what you hold dear. I'm not saint in
>>this
>> > > > > field and I've been attacked several times for my outspoken
>>bluntness
>> > > > > during a counter-attack.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This said, I believe there's a great deal of validity in what
>>Havor
>> > > > > was saying. Anger is a poor companion in a battle for people's
>> > > > > attention.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Bob Williams-Findlay
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ________________End of message______________________
>> > > > >
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>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Horóscopo, tarot, numerología... Escucha lo que te dicen los astros.
>> > http://astrocentro.msn.es/
>> >
>>
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>I have replied Mr Quarter, privately, as it was a private conversation.
>Sorry about that
>Jorge
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Horóscopo, tarot, numerología... Escucha lo que te dicen los astros.
>http://astrocentro.msn.es/
>
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I have replied Mr Quarter privately, as it was a private conversation.
Sorry about that
Jorge
_________________________________________________________________
Móviles, DVD, cámaras digitales, coleccionismo... Con unas ofertas que ni te
imaginas. http://www.msn.es/Subastas/
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