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>From: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy >Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:54:13 +0000 > >>From: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]> >>Reply-To: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]> >>To: [log in to unmask] >>Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy >>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:43:04 -0500 >> >> Dear Jorge, >> >> do enlighten me, "scientifically and practically", >> how my arguments are "anti americanism"? >> >> I'm all ears. >> >> >>David >> >> >>From: Jorge Bolaños <[log in to unmask]> >>To: [log in to unmask] >>BCC to: Subject: Re: The Shakespeare >>Tragedy >>Date sent: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 11:58:09 +0000 >> >> > That stupid antiamericanism is the last shelter for the far left, once >>all >> > your arguments have been refuted scientifically and practically. But >>you >> > should keep and take care of your old ideological phantoms, winter is >>coming >> > and they can cold could bring fatal consequences for them. >> > But, I am disapointed with you. >> > So you dont recognize your hostility towards your neighbours? >> > Are you really a marxist or what? >> > >> > >> > >From: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]> >> > >Reply-To: David Quarter <[log in to unmask]> >> > >To: [log in to unmask] >> > >Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy >> > >Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 03:06:02 -0500 >> > > >> > >Tim writes: >> > > >> > > "you read more into my comments than I would think >> > >supportable.". >> > > >> > > I would say, in fact, that your response below indicates exactly >> > >what I suggested: That you think primarily in terms of how the >> > >elections impacts *America*, in the narrow, middle class, >> > >eurocentric sense of the word. >> > > >> > ><<<<However, I *will* say that regardless of >> > > > your political outlook, the USA presidential election was >> > >conducted and >> > > > peacefully settled according to democratic principles.>>> >> > > >> > > Your so-called "democratic" principles are grounded in a system >> > >that priviledges the rich AND/OR the politically connected at the >> > >expense of the rest. By rich I mean having Scrooge McDuck like >> > >pockets. Poltical connectness in the U.S. requires the type of clout >> > >that would enable someone to rise from a ragged upbringing in >> > >Arkansas to being elected President of the United States. The >> > >latter *only* occurs by being attached to one of the "two" main >> > >political parties., both of which are deeply entwined with the 5 % or >> > >so of the population who controls the economy. >> > > >> > >What happens for virtually all "independent" candidate in the U.S. >> > >lacking in the funds to support their campaign is that they are >> > >barred from the TV and radio airwaves. This since the TV stations >> > >are controlled by big business or rich people who aren't interested >> > >in supporting candidates not alligned to the "two" main >> > >representatives of the rich. >> > > >> > >Lacking in money or political connectsion leaves one without the >> > >funds necessary to get a message across to the voting public - >> > >exactly what a third candidate like Nader -- by no stretch of the >> > >imagination a poor guy -- faced in this recent election and exactly >> > >why a system, such as this, precludes any real possibility of >> > >actual "choices" between candidates. >> > > >> > > Your beloved racist, classist so-called "democratic" system also >> > >either prohibits by law, or makes it virtually impossible for, a nice >> > >chunk of your population to even vote. >> > > >> > >What a pathetic excuse for a democracy! >> > > >> > > >> > > > Communicate your discontent about USA politics and foreign >> > >policy all >> > > > you like; that is or ought to be your privilege. >> > > > >> > > >> > >Translation: You can criticize my country but it means you're my >> > >enemy. >> > > >> > >So typical of the seige mentality that afflicts the majority of >> > >Americans. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >Subject: RE: The Shakespeare Tragedy >> > >Date sent: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:03:37 -0500 >> > >From: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]> >> > >To: "David Quarter" <[log in to unmask]>, >> > > <[log in to unmask]> >> > > >> > > > Well, all I can say is that I think you have read more into my >>comment >> > > > than I would think supportable. However, I *will* say that >>regardless of >> > > > your political outlook, the USA presidential election was conducted >>and >> > > > peacefully settled according to democratic principles. In my book, >>if an >> > > > election is democratically held and an outcome then occurs as the >>will >> > > > of the people (whether or not I might agree with that outcome), >>then >> > > > that settles it. >> > > > >> > > > Communicate your discontent about USA politics and foreign policy >>all >> > > > you like; that is or ought to be your privilege. >> > > > >> > > > Tim >> > > > >> > > > Timothy Lillie, PhD >> > > > Associate Professor >> > > > The University of Akron >> > > > Zook Hall 322 >> > > > Akron OH 55325-4205 >> > > > 330-972-6746 (voice) >> > > > 330-972-5209 (fax >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: David Quarter [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >> > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 12:31 AM >> > > > To: Lillie,Timothy H; [log in to unmask] >> > > > Cc: [log in to unmask] >> > > > Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I'm *somewhat perplexed* by Tim's statement that: >> > > > >> > > > Why are they [the Mirror] so >> > > > > thin-skinned at a democratic (there are, so far at least, very >>few >> > > > > reported problems in voting) outcome? >> > > > >> > > > Pexplexed in the sence that the statement's hard to rectify with >>the >> > > > position of someone claiming allegiance to the social model, >> > > > "somewhat" in that it is less hard to fathom when seen in the >> > > > context of it being said by an American. >> > > > >> > > > AT least, the impression I got of the social model -- someone >> > > > please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that the political is never >> > > > divorced from the social. The two are seen as connected. Yet the >> > > > impression I get of your statement, Tim, is quite the opposite: >>that >> > > > what happens in the U.S. only matters. That, for you, the human >> > > > (social) consequences of the U.S. (political) elections is only to >>be >> > > > interpreted within the confines of the U.S. state, divorced from >>its >> > > > impact on the rest of the world. What you label, the "democatric >> > > > outcome" for the U.S. should supercede all other concerns. >> > > > >> > > > Not that I imagine most citizens outside the U.S would in principle >> > > > be against this idea. The notion of the American people/America >> > > > being content solely with their own democratic outcomes would for >> > > > most be a welcome breath of fresh air...surely, something to make >> > > > Osama ecstatic about, that is, of course, if it were indeed the >> > > > pattern. Alas, this couldn't be further from the usual method of >> > > > comportment of the U.S state. The fact is today, a few wealthy >> > > > states, lead by the U.S. as self annointed "leader of the free >>world", >> > > > makes decisions which generally affect the rest of the world >> > > > citizens, the majority in fact, in a negative way. >> > > > >> > > > Take Iraq, for example. Since the U.S., along with the British et >>al., >> > > > first turned against Saddam Hussein (formerly a client of your >> > > > country) an estimated 1.6 mllion Iraqis have been killed. They >>have >> > > > died b/c of 10 years of vicious, brutal sanctions imposed on them >> > > > under the reign of the father of your currently-elected president, >> > > > sanctions which were then enthusiastly tightened under your >> > > > subsequent president's (Clinton's) watch. And, in case you forgot, >> > > > since Bush junior's took the decision to invade and occupy Iraq, >> > > > countless more Iraqi people have died. >> > > > >> > > > More generally, billions of human beings are affected each an every >> > > > day by decisions taken on your country's behalf -- from as far >> > > > away regions as South America all the way to the far east. For >> > > > example, the farmers of India forced off their land by your -GMO >> > > > multinationals; >> > > > >> > > > ; The millions of Africans brutalized by military dictatorships or >> > > > leadership supported by your government (often by way of the CIA), >> > > > people who, in their state of suffering, have been denied basic >> > > > resources such as shelter and medicine, i.e., resources which >> > > > western countries, but, more recently, cheifly your own >> > > > government., either refuse to share with Africans or forcefully >>steal >> > > > from them under the cloak of corporate "exporting" to the west. >> > > > >> > > > There are many more examples to list. >> > > > >> > > > What I would argue is that as long as the world continues to be >> > > > affected adversely by the policies carried in the name of the U.S >> > > > state, it seems only uncumbent upon us, as our democratic duty >> > > > as citizens outside the U.S. (as well as for Americans who oppose >> > > > the system) to communicate, by whatever means possible, our >> > > > discontent toward your country's cherised "democratic outcomes". >> > > > >> > > > DOQ >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Date sent: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:58:23 -0500 >> > > > Send reply to: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]> >> > > > From: "Lillie,Timothy H" <[log in to unmask]> >> > > > Subject: Re: The Shakespeare Tragedy >> > > > To: [log in to unmask] >> > > > >> > > > > I'm standing a bit outside all this, since my connection to the >> > > > > British world of disability studies has recently been weaker than >>it >> > > > > once was but it seems to me that the discussion is likely a good >>one >> > > > > if it results in a bit more civility in discussion of competing >>views. >> > > > >> > > > > Of course, it likely will not seem that way to the person or >>persons >> > > > > who are personally savaged and I *know* that many >>diversity-sensitive >> > > > > and inclusionary folks are VERY thin skinned when they feel they >>are >> > > > > being criticized. Their immediate response, in my view, has been >>to >> > > > > cry victim and demand an apology...while feeling that their >>critiques, >> > > > >> > > > > regardless of how personal they are are somehow justified. >> > > > > >> > > > > Why do I mention this here? Because of the headline Bob refers >>to in >> > > > > the Daily Mirror figuratively weeping over the "dumbness" of >> > > > > fifty-nine million Americans in choosing someone not acceptable, >> > > > > apparently, to the Daily Mirror. I don't know the Mirror's >>politics >> > > > > but from the reported headline they are obviously left of >>center..... >> > > > > Why are they so thin-skinned at a democratic (there are, so far >>at >> > > > > least, very few reported problems in voting) outcome? The answer >>might >> > > > >> > > > > be: because they think that people who don't share their view, >>like >> > > > > those attacking Shakespeare personally, are simply stupid and >>evil. >> > > > > Tell that often enough to someone and that person stops listening >>to >> > > > > you. >> > > > > >> > > > > So be careful of how critiques are framed: even righteous >>liberals >> > > > > (and conservatives, for that matter, who in my view are similarly >> > > > > constructed) can be vicious and bigoted when *their* precious >>views >> > > > > are critiqued. >> > > > > >> > > > > Timothy Lillie, PhD >> > > > > Associate Professor >> > > > > The University of Akron >> > > > > Zook Hall 322 >> > > > > Akron OH 55325-4205 >> > > > > 330-972-6746 (voice) >> > > > > 330-972-5209 (fax >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List >> > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob >> > > > > Williams-Findlay >> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:45 AM >> > > > > To: [log in to unmask] >> > > > > Subject: The Shakespeare Tragedy >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > I find myself strangely caught between Shirley's world and >>Havor's. >> > > > > >> > > > > Early this week Tom and I had an exchange of words; my posting on >>the >> > > > > List concerning his Ouch article was detailed and reasoned, I >>felt. On >> > > > >> > > > > Ouch itself, I admit I reacted from the gut and penned off a >>short, >> > > > > journalistic style sound-bite response. >> > > > > >> > > > > Tom characterised this as "personal abuse" and suggested I >>should've >> > > > > focused on his "views"; my retort was that I believe a person's >>style >> > > > > of delivery is as much a part of the debate as are the views the >> > > > > individual expresses. I, therefore, stood by my decision to >> > > > > characterise Tom as behaving like a Victorian Headmaster when he >> > > > > addresses the Disabled People's Movement. >> > > > > >> > > > > The problem is where do you draw the line? I hear what Shirley is >> > > > > saying; but am I being hypocritical by saying that I think she >>was >> > > > > unwise to voice it in the manner that she has? >> > > > > >> > > > > Today, the British newspaper, the Daily Mirror, ran the headline >> > > > > something >> > > > > like: >> > > > > Are 59,000 Americans that Dumb? >> > > > > >> > > > > I believe this is no different; my thought processes went there, >>yet >> > > > > the price of liberty requires us to accept the challenge of the >> > > > > unthinkable. >> > > > > >> > > > > Personally, I have distanced myself from Tom's views because many >> > > > > contradiction some of the core values I have; no doubt what I do >>and >> > > > > say outrage some people also. >> > > > > >> > > > > It's hard not to be outraged and to want to scrap with those who >>you >> > > > > feel threaten or undermine what you hold dear. I'm not saint in >>this >> > > > > field and I've been attacked several times for my outspoken >>bluntness >> > > > > during a counter-attack. >> > > > > >> > > > > This said, I believe there's a great deal of validity in what >>Havor >> > > > > was saying. Anger is a poor companion in a battle for people's >> > > > > attention. >> > > > > >> > > > > Bob Williams-Findlay >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ________________End of message______________________ >> > > > > >> > > > > Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List >>are now >> > > > >> > > > > located at: >> > > > > >> > > > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html >> > > > > >> > > > > You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page. >> > > > > >> > > > > ________________End of message______________________ >> > > > > >> > > > > Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List >>are now >> > > > >> > > > > located at: >> > > > > >> > > > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html >> > > > > >> > > > > You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >________________End of message______________________ >> > > >> > >Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List >> > >are now located at: >> > > >> > >www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html >> > > >> > >You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page. >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Horóscopo, tarot, numerología... Escucha lo que te dicen los astros. >> > http://astrocentro.msn.es/ >> > >> >>________________End of message______________________ >> >>Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List >>are now located at: >> >>www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html >> >>You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page. >I have replied Mr Quarter, privately, as it was a private conversation. >Sorry about that >Jorge > >_________________________________________________________________ >Horóscopo, tarot, numerología... Escucha lo que te dicen los astros. >http://astrocentro.msn.es/ > >________________End of message______________________ > >Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List >are now located at: > >www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html > >You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page. I have replied Mr Quarter privately, as it was a private conversation. Sorry about that Jorge _________________________________________________________________ Móviles, DVD, cámaras digitales, coleccionismo... Con unas ofertas que ni te imaginas. http://www.msn.es/Subastas/ ________________End of message______________________ Archives and tools for the Disability-Research Discussion List are now located at: www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html You can JOIN or LEAVE the list from this web page.