A building as defined by the listed building act includes building
without roofs - if a garden ornament can be a building then why not
Hadrian's wall. The Antonine wall would have to be earthwork, however.
Thank You
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
01454 863649
>>> [log in to unmask] 07/10/2004 12:34:31 >>>
Hi Nick and others,
There are various things about the Evidence Thesaurus that have been
puzzling me too:
1) How to record a WALL that isn't part of a building, for instance
Hadrians Wall, or here in Southampton - our Town Wall?
It doesn't fit with the definition of BUILDING, as it has no roof.
It also doesn't fit with the definition of a STRUCTURE - "monument
.....originally designed without roof or walls"!
I added a candidate term of WALL to the HBSMR V2.10 Evidence Thesaurus,
but this was rejected by the DSU, and I was told to use STRUCTURE. OK,
but can we have a new definition of STRUCTURE please?
2) MODIFIED SURFACE isn't defined in the HBSMR V2.10 version of the
thesaurus, so I've been using it for roads, paved areas, etc (ones that
aren't SUB SURFACE DEPOSITS)!!
3) GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE isn't a separate term in HBSMR V2.10 version
of the thesaurus, being included in the definition of SUB SURFACE
DEPOSIT. I added it as a candidate term under IMPLIED EVIDENCE, but
this was rejected and I was told it was a NPT for SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT.
But the EH Evidence Thesaurus does have it as a separate term, and the
EH definition of SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT refers specifically to forms of
ground disturbance!
I think GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE should be distinct from SUB SURFACE
DEPOSIT (excavated deposits) - surely it is implied/?unproven rather
than physical evidence??
4) I'm not sure of the distinction between Evidence by Implication and
Evidence by Method in the EH Thesaurus - surely GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE and
ORAL HISTORY could be easily be put in both categories. (Don't know
about the your suggested overlap with events Nick - I haven't thought
that through.)
5) HBSMR V2.10 version of the thesaurus has EXTANT BUILDING, RUINED
BUILDING AND DESTROYED BUILDING, but these aren't in the EH Thesaurus.
I find these distinctions useful and would also like STRUCTURE divided
up in the same way.
I don't agree with you Nick about these linking in with Condition
(unless I've misunderstood you). If a building is recorded prior to
demolition, the Evidence derived from the building survey would surely
be EXTANT BUILDING, although after demolition, the Condition would be
Destroyed (or at least above-ground parts, as the foundations might
remain - I must admit I find Condition to be a whole can of worms in
itself, so have avoided filling it in to date). I've just checked
"Informing the future of the past" and MIDAS, and am not clear whether
or not my use of the EVIDENCE terms is correct here. Help DSU!
I agree with you Nick that this all needs sorting out before we all
start amending our records. And it would also be useful if EVIDENCE was
more clearly defined, perhaps with examples, in the new versions of
"Informing the future of the past" and MIDAS, as there is clearly cause
for confusion.
Ingrid Peckham
Sites and Monuments Record Officer
Libraries, Arts and Heritage
Southampton City Council
Tel: 023 8083 2850
Fax: 023 8033 7593
Email: [log in to unmask]
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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
Sent: 07 October 2004 10:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus (Long)
Hi Phil
My thoughts are as follows:
General Points
Some of the terms seem to have significantly changed their meaning - eg
Sub Surface deposit, and I am not sure how good an idea this is, as it
will mean in our case a lot of recoding. And the reason for their
meaning change does not seem good to me.
For example - Sub Surface Deposit used to cover Geophysical evidence ,
but this has now been separated out. But I don't think is necessary. A
term to distinguish between detected and excavated deposits is useful,
but a simpler solution might be to add the term Excavated Feature.
The whole evidence by Technique strikes me as overlapping a bit too
much with Events, so I don't like it much.
Also (and I am comparing the on line list with the V3 HBSMR list, not
sure where that derives) some of the terms seem to link into condition.
Hence the removal of various types of building makes sense to some
degree, but if we were to use this Thes we would want the condition
aspect of the building saved somehow. In this sense I can see why
Destroyed monument, Levelled earthwork have gone too
below are my comments term by term, where I felt I could usefully
comment. Blanks mean I don't know, and can't justify the time to
research.
I do not think we should consider using this in HBSMR until a lot more
consultation has been carried out, as using this new Thesaurus will
involve a lot of recasting work, which will have to be done manually in
some cases (eg separating out which SUBSURFACE deposits are still that
and which were from geophysics). The consultation should make clear not
only the new terms, but terms whose definitions have changed.
* EVIDENCE <BY FORM>
o ARCHITECTURAL COMPONENT - ok
o CROPMARK ok
o EARTHWORK
o FIND - what happened to artefact scatter - this can be evidence
for a monument
§ STRATIFIED FIND ok
§ UNSTRATIFIED FIND ok
o MODIFIED LANDSCAPE
§ BOTANICAL FEATURE
§ ENHANCED NATURAL FEATURE
§ MODIFIED SURFACE - is this supposed to cover carved rocks? The
scope note needs clarification
o STRUCTURE
§ BUILDING
§ SUBMERGED STRUCTURE
§ VESSEL STRUCTURE
§ SUBTERRANEAN STRUCTURE
o SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT
* EVIDENCE <BY IMPLICATION> I like this section, pretty useful I
would say
o CONJECTURAL EVIDENCE
o DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
§ CARTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE
o ORAL HISTORY EVIDENCE
o PLACE NAME EVIDENCE
* EVIDENCE <BY METHOD> not comfortable with this, as it overlaps
with events, in my view. If it is used then doesn't some sort of
excavated feature need to be included, or surveyed feature for an
earthwork need to be added? Earthwork might describe the physical
banks/ditches etc, but if the Monument interpretation is based on a
field survey then that needs to be indexable??
o GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE
§ MARINE GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE
§ ECHOSOUNDER TRACE
§ MARINE MAGNETOMETER READING
§ SONAR CONTACT
§ SIDE SCAN SONAR CONTACT
§ TERRESTRIAL GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE
§ RESISTIVITY EVIDENCE
§ TERRESTRIAL MAGNETOMETER READING
o PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE
§ AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE - am not sure I like this - you
should be able to tell if its an earthwork or cropmark in most cases
, so
not sure it would get used much. If this term is to be used for all
AP's, then surely, logically, we only need one term of Documentary
evidence as most HER information will come from a documentary source?
Surely this is more about source than type of evidence?
§ INFRA RED PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE
* UNCERTAIN EVIDENCE
Does the term wreckage for undersea vessels not seem useful, for
scattered wrecks, unless artefact scatter would cover it?
More questions than answers, I'm afraid, hope that helps though
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Heritage Section
Countryside Service
North Yorkshire County Council
Direct Dial (01609) 532331
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/environment/heritage.shtm#Archaeology
North Yorkshire County Council has the right
and does inspect E-Government mails sent
from and to its computer system.
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/10/2004 13:58:45 >>>
Hi Sarah et al
Just to clarify. When I suggested 'aerial photographic evidence' I was
looking at the NMR thesauri online.
The version of the evidence thesaurus online is different to that in
use in HBSMR and indeed the evidence thesaurus in EH databases.
I hadn't realized that this was the case.
The online version was an attempt to improve on the old version and
arose from discussion on this list (or its predecessor) or the FISH list
I can't remember which. Anyway in our database it's called NHRDS
EVIDENCE. Which if I remember rightly standards for National Heritage
Reference Data Sets.
Why the online version points at NHRDS and not standard Evidence I
don't know but will look into it.
Anyway maybe now would be a good time to suggest that NHRDS Evidence
replace Evidence
Please look at the web version on
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/thesaurus/evidence/default.htm
Any comments as to whether this is better/worse/the same as the old one
would be welcome.
Obviously if there is general agreement that it's better then we'll
look at getting it incorporated into HBSMR asap
Phil
P.S. Sorry for any misunderstanding
-----Original Message-----
From: Poppy Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2004 13:32
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus
Phil
As an aside, the thesaurus we use in HBSMR, and which is supplied as
download from the DSU does not have "aerial photographic evidence" as
an
option - only "cropmark". Are the Evidence thesauri used within EH
and
elsewhere the same?
Best wishes
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: CARLISLE, Phil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2004 13:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus
Hi all
Sorry forgot to say if you've identified them from aerial photos!
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: HEGARTY, Cain
Sent: 05 October 2004 12:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus
Agreed - we have mapped dozens of quarries, extractive pits etc and
have
used 'earthwork', which is not entirely satisfactory, although it is
accurate. Similarly, and ideas for bombcraters?
Cain Hegarty
Aerial Photograph Interpreter
01793 414813
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Boldrini [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 05 October 2004 12:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Evidence Thesaurus
Hello Folks
when indexing a quarry against an evidence type, what would people use
for its physical remains? Its not quite a modified surface, enhanced
natural feature, or earthwork. Any ideas? TIme for a new term - Human
ALtered area? Or something?
Assuming any of you think about such things...
thanks
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Heritage Section
Countryside Service
North Yorkshire County Council
Direct Dial (01609) 532331
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/environment/heritage.shtm#Archaeology
North Yorkshire County Council has the right
and does inspect E-Government ma
ils sent
from and to its computer system.
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