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A building as defined by the listed building act includes building without roofs - if a garden ornament can be a building then why not Hadrian's wall. The Antonine wall would have to be earthwork, however. Thank You David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer 01454 863649 >>> [log in to unmask] 07/10/2004 12:34:31 >>> Hi Nick and others, There are various things about the Evidence Thesaurus that have been puzzling me too: 1) How to record a WALL that isn't part of a building, for instance Hadrians Wall, or here in Southampton - our Town Wall? It doesn't fit with the definition of BUILDING, as it has no roof. It also doesn't fit with the definition of a STRUCTURE - "monument .....originally designed without roof or walls"! I added a candidate term of WALL to the HBSMR V2.10 Evidence Thesaurus, but this was rejected by the DSU, and I was told to use STRUCTURE. OK, but can we have a new definition of STRUCTURE please? 2) MODIFIED SURFACE isn't defined in the HBSMR V2.10 version of the thesaurus, so I've been using it for roads, paved areas, etc (ones that aren't SUB SURFACE DEPOSITS)!! 3) GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE isn't a separate term in HBSMR V2.10 version of the thesaurus, being included in the definition of SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT. I added it as a candidate term under IMPLIED EVIDENCE, but this was rejected and I was told it was a NPT for SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT. But the EH Evidence Thesaurus does have it as a separate term, and the EH definition of SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT refers specifically to forms of ground disturbance! I think GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE should be distinct from SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT (excavated deposits) - surely it is implied/?unproven rather than physical evidence?? 4) I'm not sure of the distinction between Evidence by Implication and Evidence by Method in the EH Thesaurus - surely GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE and ORAL HISTORY could be easily be put in both categories. (Don't know about the your suggested overlap with events Nick - I haven't thought that through.) 5) HBSMR V2.10 version of the thesaurus has EXTANT BUILDING, RUINED BUILDING AND DESTROYED BUILDING, but these aren't in the EH Thesaurus. I find these distinctions useful and would also like STRUCTURE divided up in the same way. I don't agree with you Nick about these linking in with Condition (unless I've misunderstood you). If a building is recorded prior to demolition, the Evidence derived from the building survey would surely be EXTANT BUILDING, although after demolition, the Condition would be Destroyed (or at least above-ground parts, as the foundations might remain - I must admit I find Condition to be a whole can of worms in itself, so have avoided filling it in to date). I've just checked "Informing the future of the past" and MIDAS, and am not clear whether or not my use of the EVIDENCE terms is correct here. Help DSU! I agree with you Nick that this all needs sorting out before we all start amending our records. And it would also be useful if EVIDENCE was more clearly defined, perhaps with examples, in the new versions of "Informing the future of the past" and MIDAS, as there is clearly cause for confusion. Ingrid Peckham Sites and Monuments Record Officer Libraries, Arts and Heritage Southampton City Council Tel: 023 8083 2850 Fax: 023 8033 7593 Email: [log in to unmask] > This e-mail is intended for the addressee only. If you are not the > intended recipient, please be aware that the unauthorised use or > disclosure of the information it contains, or the unauthorised copying > or re-transmission of the e-mail are strictly prohibited. Such action > may result in legal proceedings. If the e-mail has been sent to you > in error, please accept our apologies, advise the sender as soon as > possible and then delete the message. Under the Freedom of Information > Act 2000 / Data Protection Act 1998, the contents of this e-mail, > whether it is m arked confidential or otherwise, may be disclosed. No > employee, Councillor or agent is authorised to conclude by e-mail any > binding agreement with another party on behalf of Southampton City > Council. The Council does not accept service by e-mail of court > proceedings, other processes or formal notices of any kind without > specific prior written agreement. E-mails to and from Southampton > City Council may be monitored in accordance with the law. > -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini Sent: 07 October 2004 10:02 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus (Long) Hi Phil My thoughts are as follows: General Points Some of the terms seem to have significantly changed their meaning - eg Sub Surface deposit, and I am not sure how good an idea this is, as it will mean in our case a lot of recoding. And the reason for their meaning change does not seem good to me. For example - Sub Surface Deposit used to cover Geophysical evidence , but this has now been separated out. But I don't think is necessary. A term to distinguish between detected and excavated deposits is useful, but a simpler solution might be to add the term Excavated Feature. The whole evidence by Technique strikes me as overlapping a bit too much with Events, so I don't like it much. Also (and I am comparing the on line list with the V3 HBSMR list, not sure where that derives) some of the terms seem to link into condition. Hence the removal of various types of building makes sense to some degree, but if we were to use this Thes we would want the condition aspect of the building saved somehow. In this sense I can see why Destroyed monument, Levelled earthwork have gone too below are my comments term by term, where I felt I could usefully comment. Blanks mean I don't know, and can't justify the time to research. I do not think we should consider using this in HBSMR until a lot more consultation has been carried out, as using this new Thesaurus will involve a lot of recasting work, which will have to be done manually in some cases (eg separating out which SUBSURFACE deposits are still that and which were from geophysics). The consultation should make clear not only the new terms, but terms whose definitions have changed. * EVIDENCE <BY FORM> o ARCHITECTURAL COMPONENT - ok o CROPMARK ok o EARTHWORK o FIND - what happened to artefact scatter - this can be evidence for a monument § STRATIFIED FIND ok § UNSTRATIFIED FIND ok o MODIFIED LANDSCAPE § BOTANICAL FEATURE § ENHANCED NATURAL FEATURE § MODIFIED SURFACE - is this supposed to cover carved rocks? The scope note needs clarification o STRUCTURE § BUILDING § SUBMERGED STRUCTURE § VESSEL STRUCTURE § SUBTERRANEAN STRUCTURE o SUB SURFACE DEPOSIT * EVIDENCE <BY IMPLICATION> I like this section, pretty useful I would say o CONJECTURAL EVIDENCE o DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE § CARTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE o ORAL HISTORY EVIDENCE o PLACE NAME EVIDENCE * EVIDENCE <BY METHOD> not comfortable with this, as it overlaps with events, in my view. If it is used then doesn't some sort of excavated feature need to be included, or surveyed feature for an earthwork need to be added? Earthwork might describe the physical banks/ditches etc, but if the Monument interpretation is based on a field survey then that needs to be indexable?? o GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE § MARINE GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE § ECHOSOUNDER TRACE § MARINE MAGNETOMETER READING § SONAR CONTACT § SIDE SCAN SONAR CONTACT § TERRESTRIAL GEOPHYSICAL EVIDENCE § RESISTIVITY EVIDENCE § TERRESTRIAL MAGNETOMETER READING o PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE § AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE - am not sure I like this - you should be able to tell if its an earthwork or cropmark in most cases , so not sure it would get used much. If this term is to be used for all AP's, then surely, logically, we only need one term of Documentary evidence as most HER information will come from a documentary source? Surely this is more about source than type of evidence? § INFRA RED PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE * UNCERTAIN EVIDENCE Does the term wreckage for undersea vessels not seem useful, for scattered wrecks, unless artefact scatter would cover it? More questions than answers, I'm afraid, hope that helps though best wishes Nick Boldrini Historic Environment Record Officer Heritage Section Countryside Service North Yorkshire County Council Direct Dial (01609) 532331 http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/environment/heritage.shtm#Archaeology North Yorkshire County Council has the right and does inspect E-Government mails sent from and to its computer system. >>> [log in to unmask] 05/10/2004 13:58:45 >>> Hi Sarah et al Just to clarify. When I suggested 'aerial photographic evidence' I was looking at the NMR thesauri online. The version of the evidence thesaurus online is different to that in use in HBSMR and indeed the evidence thesaurus in EH databases. I hadn't realized that this was the case. The online version was an attempt to improve on the old version and arose from discussion on this list (or its predecessor) or the FISH list I can't remember which. Anyway in our database it's called NHRDS EVIDENCE. Which if I remember rightly standards for National Heritage Reference Data Sets. Why the online version points at NHRDS and not standard Evidence I don't know but will look into it. Anyway maybe now would be a good time to suggest that NHRDS Evidence replace Evidence Please look at the web version on http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/thesaurus/evidence/default.htm Any comments as to whether this is better/worse/the same as the old one would be welcome. Obviously if there is general agreement that it's better then we'll look at getting it incorporated into HBSMR asap Phil P.S. Sorry for any misunderstanding -----Original Message----- From: Poppy Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 05 October 2004 13:32 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus Phil As an aside, the thesaurus we use in HBSMR, and which is supplied as download from the DSU does not have "aerial photographic evidence" as an option - only "cropmark". Are the Evidence thesauri used within EH and elsewhere the same? Best wishes Sarah -----Original Message----- From: CARLISLE, Phil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 05 October 2004 13:14 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus Hi all Sorry forgot to say if you've identified them from aerial photos! Phil -----Original Message----- From: HEGARTY, Cain Sent: 05 October 2004 12:22 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Evidence Thesaurus Agreed - we have mapped dozens of quarries, extractive pits etc and have used 'earthwork', which is not entirely satisfactory, although it is accurate. Similarly, and ideas for bombcraters? Cain Hegarty Aerial Photograph Interpreter 01793 414813 -----Original Message----- From: Nick Boldrini [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 05 October 2004 12:11 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Evidence Thesaurus Hello Folks when indexing a quarry against an evidence type, what would people use for its physical remains? Its not quite a modified surface, enhanced natural feature, or earthwork. Any ideas? TIme for a new term - Human ALtered area? Or something? Assuming any of you think about such things... thanks best wishes Nick Boldrini Historic Environment Record Officer Heritage Section Countryside Service North Yorkshire County Council Direct Dial (01609) 532331 http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/environment/heritage.shtm#Archaeology North Yorkshire County Council has the right and does inspect E-Government ma ils sent from and to its computer system. WARNING This E-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential or privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any opinions expressed are those of the author and not necessarily the view of the Council. 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