medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Bill East <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Constantine certainly began to show great favour to the Christian Church from
312, but from a Catholic viewpoint this does not amount to conversion.

a "Catholic viewpoint" ?

what does that mean, eggsactly, in the context of the first quarter of the
fourth century?

> Although Constantine favoured Christianity from the incident of the
Milvian Bridge onwards, he did not actually become a Christian until he
was dying. 

or, what does "become a Christian" mean, in a fourth century --rather than a
21st century-- context?

>I quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, which does in fact
have something to say on the subject:
 
> "... throughout his reign his commitment to Christianity is clear, even
though he was not baptized until just before his death (deferment of
baptism was common in those days)."

given.

> Now Constantine died in 337, which I take it dates his baptism.

it would certainly go some distance towards providing us a reliable terminus
ante for that event.
 
> Helena, on the other hand, had died in 330. Unless she was dug up and
baptised posthumously, I do not see how her conversion could possibly
have taken place after Constantine's.

we may assume that posthumous baptism was not a common practice, in the early
fourth century.

getting all those "Credo"s said would present near-insurmountable
difficulties, among other things.
 
> I am of course identifying conversion with baptism. 

following, i presume, the present teachings of the Church of Rome, 1700-odd
years after the events we are picking at.

>I realise that many protestants would not make such an identification, and I
have no wish to upset them; but neither Constantine nor Helena was a
protestant.

nor were C. nor H. "Roman Catholics".

>We are clearly talking at cross-purposes. When I wrote of Constantine's
conversion, I was referring precisely to his baptism. I realise that
there are Christians of various denominations who would not accept this
association, 


including, obviously, both Constantine and (assuming that she was, indeed,
baptised on her deathbed as well) his mommie, Helena.

>and I mean no disrespect for them, but I do not think Constantine would have
shared their views. 

?

What possible evidence can you put forward that Constantine did *not* consider
himself "a Christian" after 312?

>After the victory at Milvian Bridge he continued to act as a non-Christian,
frequently taking human life (including that of his own son). 

mmmmm... so the criteria for judging whether or not someone is a Christian or
not is whether he "acts" like one or not?

a pretty high bar, especially if one broadens it a bit to include acts other
than outright murder.

>It was precisely because his role as Emperor entailed his living a life
incompatible with Christianity that he delayed his admission into the
Christian Church until the last moment; not an unusual ploy in those days.


sorry, OO, but it seems to me that the question of "admission into the
Christian Church" and that of being (or considering oneself) a "Christian" are
two seperate issues.

the proposition that Constantine did not consider himself a "Christian" from
312 is simply belied by the considerable evidence of his actions (in favor of
"the Church") for the next quarter century.

ditto, Helena, from the time of her "conversion" until her deathbed.

if either one had *not* considered themselves to be "Christian", they would
not have followed the (said to be) common practice *among Christians* of being
baptised on their deathbeds.

narrowly --and, under the circumstances, arbitrarily-- defining what it meant
to be a "Christian" in the early fourth century according to the (present)
doctrine of the (present) Roman Church is clearly an unhelpful and irrelevant
anachronism.

"cross purposes" ?

best from here,

christopher


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