medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Andr--Yves Bourg-s <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I am not sure my English is always adequate 

it's a bit rough on occasion, André-Yves, but always understandable.

i am envious --if you want to see an inadequate command of a foreign language,
i should try writing to you in my miserable French.  

(btw, i amd sure that most list members, including myself, have a reading
knowledge of French, so you should feel free to either write entirely in your
native toungue or supplement your postings with it if you feel you are unable
to find the right phrase.)

>the count of Dol was the (archi)bishop, even if he was not so-called during
the Middle Ages


yes, thinking about your post later, i rather suspected that that might have
been the case  --as it was in various parts of France (the Bishop of Beauvais
was also the Count, i believe, among others).

> ; and the "signifer sancti Samsonis" was called "viscount de Dol" 

my inadequate knowledge of these matters suggests to me that every
place/city/diocese/chapter, etc. was unique --each having some institutional
aspects which were found in other places, but each mixing them together in its
own peculiar way.

some cathedral chapters were headed by a Dean, some by a Provost or other
dignatary ; in some dioceses the Bishop was the Count ; in most others he had
no particular secular powers at all, etc...

in Chartres (the only place i really know anything about), the city had a
count --who was also the count of Blois and, sometimes, of other places as
well-- and there was a Viscount of the City (famous the LePuiset family) who,
theoretically, held his office in fief from the Count, but who could be a very
independent fellow on occasion.

the Bishop of Chartres had no particular secular powers (or obligations)
beyond those which he had as a property owner and feudatory.

in this capacity he had a secular officer, the Vidame, who held property and
exercised certain (not easily discoverable) powers which he held in fief from
the Bishop.  

as i mentioned previously, some of the Vidame's property was within or near
the city (he had a tower in the Bishop's close, just east of the cathedral ;
certain rights and powers in the church of St. Maurice, just to the Northeast
of the city ; and property in a _villa_ near the Eastern border of the
diocese/county), among others.

presumably he was charged with leading the Bishop's _ost_ whenever that was
called out to do feudal service required by, say, the King.  (though i've
never actually come across an instance where this is recorded.)

in Chartres there was something similar to your "signifer sancti Samsonis" at
Dol --i forget the exact term used, but this fellow was, apparently, the
"standard-bearer" of the chapter of St. Mary's (the cathedral).

and he was seperate from the Vidames.

btw, i have noticed on several occasions that the secondary sources can
confuse the uncommon word "Vidame" with the more generally understood
"Viscount" and call "Vidames" "Viscounts" in error or ignorance.

>F. Duine, a scholar who knew every thing about the controversial history of 
the metropolitan see of Brittany, used to call this "viscount" a "vidame", as
he was the viscount of the (archi)bishop.


it would appear that, at Dol, the same man held both offices --which certainly
makes sense, from an institutional point of view.

i wonder if there was a Vidame of Beauvais and, if so, if he was seperate from
the Viscount of the city?

>The viscounts of Dol were deeply involved in Gregorian Reform : two of them
became (archi)bishops of Dol at the end of their life and they are well-known
as prelates of quality ; 


meaning, i presume, that the Viscount/Vidame became a cleric "at the end of
his life" ?

the Vidame of Chartres apparently was an _ex officio_ member of the cathedral
Chapter but was definitely not a cleric --we can trace the office through the
family for several generations in the late 11th-12th centuries.

in the early 12th century it was, apparently, held by the Vidamesse for a
period of time.

>several cadets of this family became monks or canons (like Gilduin).

as with the Vidames of Chartres, perhaps the most famous one being Stephen,
who became abbot of the collegiate abbey of St. John of Chartres, and then
went on pilgrimage to Jerusalem, where he happened to be elected Patriarch in
the 1120s, dying there a few years later.

best from here,

christopher


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