Hi Dave,
Certainly a comprehensive list of areas whereby the clarity of definition is
in the grey zone to say the least.
I am still not convinced that those services you identify as being provided
by the landlord are covered by Part III unless they are available to the
public. Obviously the DRC need to do a lot of work in this area to ensure
that everyone knows exactly where they stand and what services are covered
in what circumstance.
Regards.
JOhn.
John Gregory
Access Officer
Cherwell District Council
Tel. 01295 221630
Email. mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
-----Original Message-----
From: Croft Consultants [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 29 November 2004 12:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing Associations and
DDA 2-1
Hi John
The way I see it -
1. In a residential home or nursing home the whole complex
would be Part
III as amened by the specific rules for these premises which
vary in
different parts of th UK and whether they are NHS
operated/contracted
properties which have their own rules.
2. In sheltered and assisted housing the residential
component is
normally in the form of a flat, bungalow, house which fall
under Breg
Part M 6-10. Although evacuation requirements may need to
be amended as
the residents may not be capable of evacuating via specified
domestic
routes.
Any other facilities e.g. shop, laundrette, bingo hall would
be Part III
and Breg Part B as these are services to those residents for
which
payment is made by the resident to the operator. This may be
a direct
payment such as coin operated washer, or an indirect payment
made as an
inclusion as part of a higher 'rent' for their premises,
which ever it
is still a paid service.
Part II would apply to any parts where employees work and
are not
domestic. (see 4.e. below)
3. But a hostel, where rooms are provided along with other
services in
one building, but does not fall under the residential home
rules and
does not provide care services, and bingo is organised by
the residents
in a communal area, would it
a) be a hotel and therefore under Part III? or
b) would you say it was residential?
4. In a related matter, who would you consider liable in the
case of
a) a resident employing another to perform services
b) social services dept. providing a person
c) a charity providing a volunteer
d) a neighbour volunteer
e) a sheltered/assisted complex where a warden provides
certain services
to the residents
to perform personal services, clean, cook, provide medical
assistance,
provide emergency aid.
This is now becoming complicated because this has aspects
relating to
the DDA and to the Health & Safety Regs.
i) who is responsible for supplying and maintaining
equipment e.g.
lifting devices, power chairs, ?
ii) who is responsible for applying Health & Safety
regulations in each
case, manual handling, CoSHH substances, etc.?
iii) who is responsible for providing the training needed by
the carer?
iv) who is responsible for the insurance?
a while back it was noted on this list that a judge had
ruled that a
carer could not use manual handling as a means of avoiding
provision of
services if the person's condition prevented use of manual
handling
equipment. We were promised a follow up on this but so far
nothing has
been reported.
but this still leaves
the problem of say a warden in a sheltered complex who
refuses to lift
someone as it could injure them and is not truly a part of
their duties.
the judge also did not take into account the physical
abilities of the
carer, a 10 stone 60 year old lady having to lift a 20 stone
man from a
bath.
I still think there are too many gray areas which need more
specific
guidance in the break down of residential and
non-residential and in
personal services and how Part III interacts.
Also there is a need for more guidance on Health and Safety
aspects, and
not from a judge with little knowledge of physiology, and
work related
injuries, may be a 'commission' should look into this aspect
made up
from people from a range of professions and needs?
Dave
John Gregory wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>
>Only if they are available to the general public and not
restricted to
>tenants. If those areas you mention offer a service to
anyone in the wider
>community then Part III applies.
>
>John.
>
>John Gregory
>Access Officer
>Cherwell District Council
>Tel. 01295 221630
>Email. mailto:[log in to unmask]
><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Croft Consultants
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 27 November 2004 12:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing
Associations and
>DDA 2
>
> Hi All
> in for another
> I would think that communal parts of a
sheltered housing
>complex(e.g.
> laundrette, cafe, shop, swimming pool, gym,
garden etc)
>would be Part
> III even though they are only open to
residents because
>these are part
> of a service offered by the operators. Only
the actual
>rooms/ flats/
> bungalows and corridors are treated as
housing. For
>emergency and
> evacuation the complex is treated as Part
III.
> That is the way sheltered housing operators
are expected to
>perform in
> our county.
> Dave
>
> Al Hunt wrote:
>
> >Here's my two pence worth on this.....
> >
> >Our sheltered housing is treated the same
way as any other
>dwelling...
> >
> >If a resident requires any adaptations in
order to access
>their home,
> >then these are carried out on a one to one
basis. Just the
>same as any
> >other householder would under the
adaptations grant scheme.
> >Visitors would thus be the same as anyone
visiting you or I
>at home. Not
> >covered by the Act.
> >Communal areas are accessible to the
residents and if they
>have a
> >concert or bingo then they are all able to
participate. I
>suppose that
> >visitors who enjoy the same concert or
bingo would be
>covered by Part
> >III because it is then a service. I suppose
whoever is
>responsible for
> >managing the communal part of the complex
has a duty
>therefore under
> >Part III. (The Housing Association or the
Council. What if
>the communal
> >room is considered part of the collective
home though. EG
>what if you
> >were to hold a wedding party in a marquee
in the grounds of
>your
> >home?... The mind boggles
> >
> >Alan
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Accessibuilt list
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> >Of John Gregory
> >Sent: 26 November 2004 12:08
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Housing Associations and DDA
> >
> >
> >Helen,
> >
> >No problem regarding passing on comments.
> >
> >John.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: helen kane
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: 26 November 2004 11:30
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] Housing
Associations and DDA
> >
> >
> >
> >Thanks all, good to see people interested
in the subject.
> >
> >Does anyone think it appropriate to pass
these comments
>onto the DRC and
> >see what they have to say about it?
They're really keen to
>clarify.
> >The RICS working party would also be very
interested. I
>need consent
> >before I can pass info. on of course.
> >
> >Any clarity for surveyors would be
appreciated,
>particularly as some
> >landlords have been serving notices on
tenants to undertake
>often
> >unecessary and very expensive (eg £50k for
a small
>shop)works under the
> >"DDA" banner. Most have no idea of the
difference between
>parts II and
> >III, particularly in retail, let alone
common v communal,
>multi-user
> >areas and the lack of "public" definition.
> >
> >Perhaps an article?
> >
> >Helen
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: david croft
<[log in to unmask]>
> >>Reply-To: Accessibuilt list
<[log in to unmask]>
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: Re: Housing Associations and DDA
> >>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:57:41 -0000
> >>
> >>Hi All
> >>As Marcus says I.m willing to stick my oar
in.
> >>
> >>The way I look at it in places like
residential homes we
>need a two
> >>level
> >>
> >>
> >definition
> >
> >
> >>1. communal areas - areas where residents
and their
>invited guests and
> >>
> >>
> >relatives have access, but are not open to
members of the
>general
> >public.
> >
> >
> >>2. Common areas- areas which are used by
non-residents or
>non-employees
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>of
> >>
> >>
> >the owners (be they a NHS, Housing
Association or the
>residents
> >themselves.)
> >
> >
> >
> >> 2- common areas would be covered by Part
!!! and where
>relevant Part
> >>II
> >>
> >>1. communal is more problematic. as
> >>if residents are paying for a the
'service' (out of their
>pocket,
> >>
> >>
> >insurance
> >payments, NHS payments etc.) i.e. they are
paying more than
>would be
> >charged for their personal rooms, surely
the building
>operators are
> >providing a service and the communal areas
would then be
>part of the
> >'service' provided by the operator to
residents and thus
>fall under Part
> >III. while the personal rooms would be
residential and fall
>under
> >Building Regulations Part M sections 6-10.
> >
> >
> >>with Marcus post box comment, the way I
see it -
> >>if they are purely for incoming mail which
is sorted by
>the building
> >>
> >>
> >operator's employees Part II would apply to
their
>employees, if
> >residents have to go to a specific pick up
point for their
>box, it is a
> >service and should be covered by Part III.
All at the cost
>of the
> >operator.
> >
> >
> >>if the boxes are provided by management
and a post office
>employee
> >>sorts
> >>
> >>
> >the mail into individual boxes this would
be Part III again
>at the
> >operator's expense.
> >
> >
> >>if the boxes are provided by the post
office this would be
>part II for
> >>
> >>
> >their employees and Part III for the
residents as this is a
>service.
> >
> >
> >>An outgoing mail box is the post office
responsibility and
>a Part III
> >>
> >>
> >service.
> >
> >
> >>Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>----------End of Message----------
> >>
> >>Run by SURFACE for more information on
research,
>consultancy and the
> >>
> >>
> >distance taught MSc. in Accessibility and
Inclusive Design
>programme
> >visit:
> >
> >
> >>http://www.inclusive-design.it
> >>
> >>Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion
list are located
>at
> >>
> >>
>
>http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
> >
>
>
>
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