medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

hello, Jim !

just back from France, are you ?

Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/chartresmss/ms577f8-te.jpg

>Although it seems likely that you already know of this, here is the
description in Yves Delaporte, Les manuscrits enlumines de la bibliotheque de
Chartres (Chartres, SAEL, 1929), p. 9: à gauche est représenté un prêtre,
vu de face, en vêtements sacerdotaux (aube, étole, chasuble), dans
l'attitude du célébrant pendant le Canon de la
messe.  Il est nimbé.


well, this is the source of my .jpg --the ms itself being lost in the dreadful
fire of May, 1944
(http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/chartresmss/montescot44.jpg)


i read the text on it at the time i scanned and OCRed the early part of his
catalogue (which is in chronological order) and put it up on my site :

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/chartresmss/delaporte.doc

then i forgot about it, following my usual practice of just looking at the
pictures, not bothering with any text anywhere.

yes, it's a priest, but a *nimbed* one --who could that be, at this time
(later 10th century??), i wonder ?

as Karl Brunner says, this is the TE IGITUR page (fol. 8r) from --not a
missal-- but a sacramentary.  (formerly Chartres, Bibl. mun. ms 577)

here is a summary of Delaporte's description of the ms :

Ms. 577. — Sacramentaire de Saint-Père. Xe siècle. (Saint-Père.)

Fol. 6 (en tête de la Préface), peinture représentant le Christ en croix.
Le sujet, dessiné à la plume d'une manière très barbare, est rehaussé de
quelques couleurs. La composition est entourée d'un encadrement, orné de
feuillages stylisés, exécuté en rouge et en noir.

Fol. 7, début de la Préface (Vere dignam et iustum est) en lettres
ornementées. Le V initial, décoré de nattes et d'entrelacs se tranformant
aux angles en têtes d'oiseaux, tient presque toute la page. Bordure analogue
à la précédente.

Fol. 8 (début du Canon), le T en tête des mots Te igitur est au milieu de la
page dont il occupe presque toute la hauteur ; sa décoration est analogue à
celle du V du feuillet précédent. A droite, la suite du texte est écrite en
lettres du même style, mais moins grandes; à gauche est représenté un
prêtre, vu de face, en vêtements sacerdotaux (aube, étole, chasuble), dans
l'attitude du célébrant pendant le Canon de la messe. Il est nimbé. Bordure
analogue aux précédentes (PI. III).

Il existe dans le cours du volume un certain nombre de grandes initiales
décorées plus ou moins richement dans le même style. 

Fol. 46v° et 47 (dimanche des Rameaux), dans les marges, dessin représentant
des palmes.

Le manuscrit renferme de plus un grand nombre de petites initiales; la 

Les fol. 94-109, du XIIe siècle, renferment des initiales alternativement
rouges et vertes, ornées de quelques festons très simples.
[Sur ce manuscrit une note de M. L. Delisle, Mémoires sur d’anciennes
sacramentaires (Mém. De l’Acad. des Inscr., XXXII, 1er partie), 1886, no.
LIV.]
---------------------


a photograph of the Crucifixion on fol. 6 is published by Delaporte in his
_Les Manuscrits de Chant liturgique de la Bibliothéque municipale de
Chartres_ (_Paléographie Musicale_, XVII, 1958.

i have a photocopy of that page before me, but am unable to share a .jpg of it
because I.U.'s scanner died over the 4th of July weekend.

it seems to be in the same hand as the TE drawing, but there is considerably
more to be seen of the figure style.

>If, as seems entirely possible for the 10th century, this image was
copied from an older source

possibly.

and it is the *style* of that "older source" which i am *really* interested in
trying to see and understand, through the very dark glass of this artist who,
while rather competent, is not capable of sufficient Clarity of Vision to
convey (Realise) the Complexity of the archetype.

>it may, more generally, be possible to describe the figure as being in the
orant position of prayer, although the chasuble suggests that Canon Delaporte
was correct.  

?

the two (orant and priest) are certainly not incompatable, are they ?

>In any case, he undoubtedly knew a thing or two about  liturgical vestments,
even though, according to the current diocesan archivist, Abbe Bizeau, he
himself would occasionally vest himself for a mass and then absent-mindedly
wander up a staircase in the cathedral and be found studying one of the
stained glass windows in the clerestory!

a classic Bizeau story !

lovely man.

thanks for sharing.

welcome home.

if, indeed, you are.


Stephen M. Collins <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/chartresmss/ms577f8-te.jpg

>I think what you are seeing is the artistic interpretation of the folds in
the alb.  

is it the alb which is the "close-sleeved" undergarment ?

>The stole seems to me to end in a simple fringe.  

yes, and has a "zig-zag" decoration running along its length.

now, if you can follow the lines (not easily done) from the definite fringe
which marks the ends of the alb, the alb seems to run *under* whatever it is
that he's got draped around his sholders, which falls over his chest in loops
between his lower arms.

but that over-garment isn't a "normal" chausable, is it ?

isn't it this garment --done in a heavy black line on the front-- which falls
behind him in a wavy, lazy zig-zag fashion, forming the outermost lines of the
figure?

that's the way i read it, anyway.

i *think*, btw, that the curious almost semicircular paired lines which occupy
the next "zone" inside --between the lazy zig-zags of the hem of the outer
garment and the stronger, true zig-zags of the alb-- the lines of that zone
are actually the *legs* of the archetype, "misunderstood" by the present
artist, who is inclined to see (and reproduce) things in terms of pattern and
design (note the foliate border, where he's done the same thing).

i.e., the area between the "downward pointing" semicircles above and the
"upward pointing" semicircles below, that area in the middle is (or was, in
the original archetype) actually the *knee* of the leg.

i.e., the archetype might have looked something like the leg of this figure :

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/etampes/interior/etpau2.jpg
 
that's my working hypothesis, anyway.

>From what period and setting is this?  

Delaporte says only "Xe siecle" in his catalogue, though he may say more in
that 1958 publication i mentioned above, i'll have to see.

i'm no palaeographer, but from what i can see of the "regular" script on the
folios which he reproduces there, it looks like it's pretty close to ealy 11th
century charters i've seen, so i'd guess later 10th c., fwTw.

"setting" ?

"St. Pere" is the Benedictine house of St. Peter's of Chartres, a Merovingian
foundation, reformed in the 851 by Fleury and, i *believe* under the influenc
of Fleury for such things as its scriptorium practices.

the elaborate interlaces of the TE page are reminescent --at first glance,
anyway-- to examples from ms known to come from Fleury :

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/fleurymss/orleans175p1.jpg

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/fleurymss/orleans175p16.jpg

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/fleurymss/orleans175p69.jpg

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/fleurymss/orleans175p175.jpg
(woops, same ms, but an other sort of "interlace" --scribe into the chalice
wine!)

the Fleury scriptorium was, itself, apparently somewhat under the sway of
Anglo-Saxon styles, from at least the time of Abbot Abbo (988-1004), who
visited England just before becomming abbot.

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/fleurymss/orleans342pA.jpg

>This is the facing page of the Canon of the Mass, which usually depicts
Christ crucified.  

the Crucifixion scene is on fol. 6 ; this is fol. 8.

the TE IGITVR page was often conflated with a Crucifixion, but not here.

>That would also seem apropriate with the large "T" in the center of the page,
but could that be Christ standing next to the Cross rather than the priest
without a chasuble?  

i don't think so.

no cruciform halo, for starters.

>It's a very nice graphic, though.

well, it is and it isn't.

not as nice as this one, also from Chartres, from a bit later :

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/mss/chartresmss/ms120-f57v-mark.jpg

Cyprian Rosen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>If he is wearing a chasuble (besides alb and stole), it is a strange design,
since the top garment seems to end at his waist and is very narrow.  It looks
like he is wearing some sort of cape that is hanging down the back.

yes.

many thanks to all for your imput --i'm really out of my depth, here.

best,

christopher

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html