medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

>From: Richard Landes <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>   <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [M-R] translations and heresy: waldo and gregory vii
>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:16:57 -0400
>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>
>>Waldes got into trouble more for preaching, as you say, and was already
>>firmly established as a heretic in the church's eyes before he attempted
>>to
>>create a vernacular bible.
>
>where do you get this?  he went to rome with his bible hoping for papal
>approval.
>

According to Etienne de Bourbon and our old friend Walter Mapp, a couple of
Waldensians (but not Waldes himself according to most sources, though some
do mention his presence, and one claims that his profession of faith was
read by Waldes in the Pope's presence at the 3rd Lateran council) went to
Rome with the "Sentences", which consisted of the text of the Psalter and a
few writings from the OT and NT which had been translated into the French,
in 1179. However, Waldes had already been condemned by his local church in
1176 for preaching. Having done a little more research, however, I do find
mention that Waldes commissioned translations from a couple of unnamed
priests or monks before 1179; it's possible this was also before he was
condemned in 1176, but I haven't found any direct mention of translation
before this time. If you know of any sources that do mention this, please
let me know, as I'd be most interested in them. I should also apologise for
saying he was firmly established as a heretic too - he was described as a
heretic by the local church in Lyons, the archbishop of Lyons (Jean aux
Belles-Mains) having expelled and excommunicated them according to Bernard
Gui, but a couple of secondary sources (Malcolm Lambert and Herbert
Grundmann I believe) do say that Waldes was still considered in good
standing in the church's eyes until about a year after the third Lateran
council.

>>For Tyndale, it would be better to look at
>>Wycliffe and the Lollards; a few years after Wycliffe's death the Lollards
>>pieced together a vernacular bible, and while not illegal or particularly
>>heretical at the time, it was made illegal and heretical in England to
>>own,
>>carry or make a vernacular bible. The church at the time didn't like
>>vernacular bibles in any shape or form...
>
>at this time?  we have statements from gregory vii that make it quite clear
>that even translating the liturgy into the vernacular was not a good thing
>on the order of pearls before swine.  this is a longstanding attitude, esp
>from the 11th cn onwards (ie from the time that commoners seem to be taking
>apostolic xnty more seriously than the clergy).


What I was referring to here was that a new law was put in place to deal
with the Lollard bible by enemies of John of Gaunt in parliament, making it
illegal to own, make or carry any portion of the Lollard vernacular bible.
Incidentally, Lambert mentions that Wyclif, when talking of a vernacular
bible, cited Czech and German translations of the bible that had not been
condemned - see Anne of Bohemia and Wenceslas' German bible, which according
to Lambert "did not become controversial in Bohemia as it did in England"
(Medieval Heresy, 240 note 71).

I certainly agree that the common laity were taking apostolic christianity
much more seriously than the clery, however, which goes a long way to
explain why anti-clericalism spread as widely as it did.

Nick

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