medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Yes, of course Jn 3 is the fountainhead of all the prooftexts--I was trying to list as many of the other references as I could recall from memory. The soile manuscriptof the Didache was only discovered in modern times--late 19thc or early 20th--I do not recall exactly. Again, my memory is imprecise, but I don't think it was quoted by any of the other surviving ancient Christian sources (which is one reason not to attempt to turn it, by itself, into an authoritative, widespread liturgical manual, from the early Church, for instance), unlike Hegesippus being quoted by Eusebius etc..
Dennis Martin
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/13/03 11:14PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dennis,
Two brief comments/questions:
1) Did Jesus not also say that unless a man be born
again of *water* and the Spirit... and would this not
be the last word on the subject?
2) Truly a question, not an argument: how do we know
the _Didache_ wasn't known in the MA and when did it
become known?
All best,
MG
--- Dennis Martin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> The requirement of water is explict already in the
> _Didache_ (possibly 1st century), which says running
> water is preferred but if not available, standing
> water will do--this in a region where water was a
> bit scarcer than Norway!
>
> The Didache, of course, was not known to medieval
> Christians, but it indicates that the insistence on
> water goes all the way back. In Acts 8, the
> Ethiopian proto-convert on a route through the Negev
> says, "Here's some water, what's to keep me from
> being baptized." He seems to assume that water is
> essential. The account of John the Baptist in the
> Gospels emphasizes that he was baptizing at a
> certain place because there was enough water there.
>
> Others can comment on the precedents in Jewish
> proselyte baptisms--presumably water was the only
> option but I can't speak to that.
>
> I would think that this would explain why the
> medieval popes mentioned seem not to have wasted
> much time even considering the alternatives.
>
> Dennis Martin
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/13/03 03:44PM >>>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> >
> >
> >I have come across a number of references to the
> practice of rich children being baptised with milk
> (and on occasion with beer!).
> >
>
> In 1241, the archbishop of Trondheim inquired on the
> validity of baptism
> with beer "due to the scarcity of water" (!) but the
> pope declined. Cf.
> Martin Kaufhold, Eine norwegische Biertaufe:
> Probleme liturgischer
> Normierung im 13. Jahrhundert, in: Zeitschrift f.
> Rechtsgeschichte 114,
> kanonistische Abteilung 83 (1997) 362---376; the
> papal letter is
> Potthast 11048.
>
> In 1206 an earlier archbishop of Trondheim had asked
> the same regarding
> the use of saliva, "propter aque penuriam" as well.
> The pope insisted on
> water. The answer was included in the Liber Extra
> (Migne, Patrologia
> Latina 215, 812 Nr. 5 = Potthast 2696; X 3. 42. 5)
>
> regards, h.w.
>
>
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