medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Interesting exmaples so far. If a general medieval view was held that
spiders were symbols of a siren-like female, it kind of makes sense that the
spider might be seen as the enemy of a cleric then.
A little more info would be helpful on this.
>From: Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [M-R] spider symbol
>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:11:32 -0800
>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>This is more a reply to your second posting.
>A quick glance at my favorite symbol dictionary finds
>the following:
>In dreams, the spider may have different meanings: a
>centralization of psychic energy; or disgust at the
>fact that she entraps and binds up her prey. Thus she
>is the symbol of the bewitching woman, the satanic
>virago whose goal is the destruction of the male. (The
>suggested preoccupation of Hugo while he writing _N-D
>de P_.)
>In the _Book of Job_ the spiderweb is the symbol of
>instability and the spider plays a part in the
>maledictions that befall Job (27: 13-22)
>The (positive) theme of the creature attached to its
>creator is found in Plato and Pseudo-Dionysius (Divine
>Name 3, 1).
>I'll continue my search in other sources if you wish;
>I think you've hit on a very rich and very ancient
>symbol.
>Consider also the Three Fates whose job is to spin and
>weave, and then cut, a man's fate.
>MG
>
>--- Rob Howe <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> > religion and culture
> >
> > I can't contribute myself to this fascinating
> > discussion but it has prompted
> > a question in my head that someone may be able to
> > answer:
> >
> > I notice that the medieval spider trope used in the
> > examples given to the
> > list so far equates spiders with toxicity. Now, I
> > know _some_ spiders are
> > venemous (although are there any of these lethal
> > spiders in Europe at
> > all???), but it is not an overiding concern of most
> > Europeans nowadays to
> > worry about dying from spider bites.
> >
> > Where did this rather paranoid equation between
> > spiders and
> > lethality/death/toxicity come from?
> >
> > Thanks if anyone knows the history to this folklore.
> >
> > Rob Howe.
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Stacy Kerr <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Reply-To: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> > religion and culture
> > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [M-R] miracle motifs-spiders & steaks
> > >Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:25:20 -0800
> > >
> > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > >Another fun spider tale. Enjoy!
> > >
> > >Notker, the anecdotal biographer of Charlemagne,
> > tells a tale of
> > >Charlemagne
> > >and a deacon:
> > >
> > >
> > >(from the medieval sourcebook
> >
> >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/stgall-charlemagne.html)
> > >
> > > "Now I must speak of two things which happened in
> > that same place. There
> > >was a deacon who followed the Italian custom and
> > resisted the course of
> > >nature. For he went to the baths and had himself
> > closely shaved, polished
> > >his skin, cleaned his nails, and had his hair cut
> > as short as if it had
> > >been
> > >done by a lathe. Then he put on linen and a white
> > robe, and then, because
> > >he
> > >must not miss his turn, or rather desiring to make
> > a fine show, he
> > >proceeded
> > >to read the gospel before God and His holy angels,
> > and in the presence of
> > >the most watchful king; his hear in the meantime
> > being unclean, as events
> > >were to show. For while he was reading, a spider
> > came down from the ceiling
> > >by a thread, hooked itself on to the deacon's head,
> > and then ran up again.
> > >The most observant Charles saw this happen a second
> > and a third time, but
> > >pretended not to notice it, and the clerk, because
> > of the emperor's
> > >presence, dare not keep of the spider with his
> > hand, and moreover did not
> > >know that it was a spider attacking him, but
> > thought that it was merely the
> > >tickling of a fly. So he finished the reading of
> > the gospel, and also went
> > >through the rest of the office. But when he left
> > the cathedral he soon
> > >began
> > >to swell up, and [101] died within an hour. But the
> > most scrupulous
> > >Charles,
> > >inasmuch as he had seen his danger and had not
> > prevented it, thought
> > >himself
> > >guilty of manslaughter and did public penance."
> > >
> > >
> > >Stacy Kerr
> > >USC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and
> > >culture
> > > >
> > > > Just another little medieval spider ditty...
> > > >
> > > > On his way to see the dying Innocent III, St.
> > Francis (I think he was
> > >the
> > > > one) dilly-dallied along, taking his own sweet
> > time to talk to a muslim,
> > > > feed a teaspoon of soup to a beggar, and help a
> > spider.
> > > >
> > > > I can just see them in Innocent's death
> > chamber...the cardinals standing
> > > > around, tapping their feet in impatience, arms
> > folded, checking their
> > > > watches every few minutes..."Where the heck is
> > he???"
> > > >
> > > > Okay so they didn't have watches then but it
> > makes for an amusing scene
> > >in
> > > > my little head.
> > > >
> > > > wendy reardon
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Theresa Gross-Diaz"
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 10:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [M-R] miracle motifs-spiders &
> > steaks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and
> > >culture
> > > >
> > > >>>> [log in to unmask] 03/13/03 08:21AM >>>
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> > medieval religion and
> > >culture
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps these could be shared with the list?
> > Best, John Dillon
> > > >
> > > > Sure thing, John!
> > > >
> > > > Both from Alfonso X "El Sabio", Cantigas de
> > Santa Maria:
> > > >
> > > > Cantiga # 201 Tells the story of a girl who
> > promises Mary that she will
> > > > remain a virgin; she breaks that promise (and
> > how!), has three babies
> > >whom
> > > > she kills one after another, and then suffering
> > remorse she tries to
> > >kill
> > > > herself by eating a poisonous spider. When that
> > doesn't work she eats a
> > > > larger one... Not yet dead but in agony
> > (obviously) she prays to Mary to
> > > > forgive her; Mary "restores her innocence" and
> > heals her.
> > > > - - - This one is particularly interesting
> > because of the restored
> > >[sexual]
> > > > innocence motif which one finds elsewhere in
> > Marian miracles (like the
> > > > naughty abbess of Soissons), and the suicide (or
> > here, attempted
> > >suicide)
> > > > motif. Despite (or because of?) the horror in
> > which suicide was held -
> > >(it
> > > > is after all the worst of the deadly sins, that
> > of Judas : despair) -
> > > > suicides (prevented or restored to life) are not
> > uncommon among miracle
> > > > stories (there is a great one connected to
> > pilgrimage to Santiago, in
> > >which
> > > > James shares the stage with Mary).
> > > >
> > > > Another Cantiga from Alfonso's collection -
> > sorry I've misplaced the
> > >number,
> > > > but it begins "non sofre Santa Maria":
> > > > It concerns pilgrims to Mary's shrine at
> > Rocamadour; nine pilgrims check
> > > > into their motel, order dinner, and go off to
> > pray at the shrine before
> > > > eating. When they return, someone has stolen
> > one of their steaks! The
> > > > bereft and hungry pilgrims ask Mary for aid, and
> > they hear "something"
> > > > thumping around inside a trunk... turns out to
> > be their very rare steak.
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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