medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I can't answer your question directly, but I do recall
my grad school days course on Victor Hugo's _N-D de
Paris, aka The Hunchback..._ in which the spider/fly
motif figures prominently. The - I suppose Freudian _
explanation of Hugo's apparent obsession with the
spider is that it is a symbol of the female sexual
apparatus. A dictionary of symbols, of which I have
many, may yield more interesting - and pertinent to
this thread - info on same. Will let you know.
MG
--- Rob Howe <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> I can't contribute myself to this fascinating
> discussion but it has prompted
> a question in my head that someone may be able to
> answer:
>
> I notice that the medieval spider trope used in the
> examples given to the
> list so far equates spiders with toxicity. Now, I
> know _some_ spiders are
> venemous (although are there any of these lethal
> spiders in Europe at
> all???), but it is not an overiding concern of most
> Europeans nowadays to
> worry about dying from spider bites.
>
> Where did this rather paranoid equation between
> spiders and
> lethality/death/toxicity come from?
>
> Thanks if anyone knows the history to this folklore.
>
> Rob Howe.
>
>
>
> >From: Stacy Kerr <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [M-R] miracle motifs-spiders & steaks
> >Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:25:20 -0800
> >
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> medieval religion and culture
> >
> >Another fun spider tale. Enjoy!
> >
> >Notker, the anecdotal biographer of Charlemagne,
> tells a tale of
> >Charlemagne
> >and a deacon:
> >
> >
> >(from the medieval sourcebook
>
>http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/stgall-charlemagne.html)
> >
> > "Now I must speak of two things which happened in
> that same place. There
> >was a deacon who followed the Italian custom and
> resisted the course of
> >nature. For he went to the baths and had himself
> closely shaved, polished
> >his skin, cleaned his nails, and had his hair cut
> as short as if it had
> >been
> >done by a lathe. Then he put on linen and a white
> robe, and then, because
> >he
> >must not miss his turn, or rather desiring to make
> a fine show, he
> >proceeded
> >to read the gospel before God and His holy angels,
> and in the presence of
> >the most watchful king; his hear in the meantime
> being unclean, as events
> >were to show. For while he was reading, a spider
> came down from the ceiling
> >by a thread, hooked itself on to the deacon's head,
> and then ran up again.
> >The most observant Charles saw this happen a second
> and a third time, but
> >pretended not to notice it, and the clerk, because
> of the emperor's
> >presence, dare not keep of the spider with his
> hand, and moreover did not
> >know that it was a spider attacking him, but
> thought that it was merely the
> >tickling of a fly. So he finished the reading of
> the gospel, and also went
> >through the rest of the office. But when he left
> the cathedral he soon
> >began
> >to swell up, and [101] died within an hour. But the
> most scrupulous
> >Charles,
> >inasmuch as he had seen his danger and had not
> prevented it, thought
> >himself
> >guilty of manslaughter and did public penance."
> >
> >
> >Stacy Kerr
> >USC
> >
> >
> >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> medieval religion and
> >culture
> > >
> > > Just another little medieval spider ditty...
> > >
> > > On his way to see the dying Innocent III, St.
> Francis (I think he was
> >the
> > > one) dilly-dallied along, taking his own sweet
> time to talk to a muslim,
> > > feed a teaspoon of soup to a beggar, and help a
> spider.
> > >
> > > I can just see them in Innocent's death
> chamber...the cardinals standing
> > > around, tapping their feet in impatience, arms
> folded, checking their
> > > watches every few minutes..."Where the heck is
> he???"
> > >
> > > Okay so they didn't have watches then but it
> makes for an amusing scene
> >in
> > > my little head.
> > >
> > > wendy reardon
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Theresa Gross-Diaz"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 10:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] miracle motifs-spiders &
> steaks
> > >
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> medieval religion and
> >culture
> > >
> > >>>> [log in to unmask] 03/13/03 08:21AM >>>
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> medieval religion and
> >culture
> > >
> > > Perhaps these could be shared with the list?
> Best, John Dillon
> > >
> > > Sure thing, John!
> > >
> > > Both from Alfonso X "El Sabio", Cantigas de
> Santa Maria:
> > >
> > > Cantiga # 201 Tells the story of a girl who
> promises Mary that she will
> > > remain a virgin; she breaks that promise (and
> how!), has three babies
> >whom
> > > she kills one after another, and then suffering
> remorse she tries to
> >kill
> > > herself by eating a poisonous spider. When that
> doesn't work she eats a
> > > larger one... Not yet dead but in agony
> (obviously) she prays to Mary to
> > > forgive her; Mary "restores her innocence" and
> heals her.
> > > - - - This one is particularly interesting
> because of the restored
> >[sexual]
> > > innocence motif which one finds elsewhere in
> Marian miracles (like the
> > > naughty abbess of Soissons), and the suicide (or
> here, attempted
> >suicide)
> > > motif. Despite (or because of?) the horror in
> which suicide was held -
> >(it
> > > is after all the worst of the deadly sins, that
> of Judas : despair) -
> > > suicides (prevented or restored to life) are not
> uncommon among miracle
> > > stories (there is a great one connected to
> pilgrimage to Santiago, in
> >which
> > > James shares the stage with Mary).
> > >
> > > Another Cantiga from Alfonso's collection -
> sorry I've misplaced the
> >number,
> > > but it begins "non sofre Santa Maria":
> > > It concerns pilgrims to Mary's shrine at
> Rocamadour; nine pilgrims check
> > > into their motel, order dinner, and go off to
> pray at the shrine before
> > > eating. When they return, someone has stolen
> one of their steaks! The
> > > bereft and hungry pilgrims ask Mary for aid, and
> they hear "something"
> > > thumping around inside a trunk... turns out to
> be their very rare steak.
>
=== message truncated ===
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