medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Werner Robl <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I first noticed and saved the necrology entry from RdH (anywhere), but you
also find it in Molinier, Ob Sens II, Chartes, P. 42-43.

i was just curious if Molinier (the "definitive" publication of the obituaries
of the diocese) had, somehow, missed this entry, as i've used his edition
rather extensively for 12-13th century folks and found only a single entry
which *may* be in error (some kind of variant from a previously published obit
entry, i forget the details).

>Sprandel's map is surely not exact in every detail.

the maps in Chedeville are not really any better, though they are a bit more
detailed (modern street names are noted).

there is a 1750 map of the city which was reprinted by the Soc. Arch. rather
recently --last 30 years-- and i have a copy of the latter, which i have been
intending to scan and put on my site.

as i recall, the medieval walls are not *specifically* shown on that, but the
boundries of them are rather clearly visible in the curious patterns of the
streets, of course.

>on revisiting your pages during the last days, I found many broken links. 

sorry, i've been working on the minor pages recently, and many new ones, to
the neglect of the homepage, which i know is full of broken links and badly in
need of revision.

i'll try and get that done this week end.

as you no doubt know, a Webmaster's Work is Never Done.

>As regards the entry of Peter of Celle[sic] from the Catholic encyclopedia, I
give you some suggestions in square brackets:

many thanks for these, Werner.

>Peter of Celles: [more usual: Peter of Celle]

yes, i see now that a google search on "Peter of Celles" only yields 13 hits,
including two from my own site.

i'm not sure where i got that plural form, but perhaps it was from Delaporte's
list of Bishops in the DHGE :

http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/bishops/bishops.html

assuming that i copied/scanned that correctly.

>Bishop of Chartres, born of noble parentage in Champagne [probably
at Aulnoy-les-Minimes near Provins; in about 1115]; died at Chartres, 20
February, 1183. [he died on 19 Febr.; 20 Febr. was his burial date at
Josaphat, next to his friend John of Salisbury ]

yes.

i wonder, if his tomb there [Josaphat was the necropolis of most 12th and
quite a few 13th c. bishops] was one of those drawn by Gaignieres, and, if it
was, i suppose it would be in Metais' "Pierres Tombeaux de l'Eure-et-Loir",
which i happen to have a copy of.

i'll take a look.

i see, you are quoting me, with your own interpolations in brackets :

>"He was educated [probably as a guest or novice, but not student in
Saint-Martin, more probably he was educated in the schools of Paris or
Sainte-Genvi+AOg-ve, as "adulescentulus" then, max. age 25!] in the monastery of
St. Martin-des-Champs at Paris, became a Benedictine, and in 1150 [not 1150,
but between 1139 and 1145] was made Abbot of La Celle [better:
Montier-la-Celle] near Troyes, whence his surname, Cellensis [not sure,
perhaps from La Celle-sous-Chantemerle, north of Romilly-sur-Seine]. 


sorry, i'm not following you, again.

are you implying that his toponym did *not* come from the abbey, but from
another "la Celle" ?

>In 1162 he was appointed Abbot of St. R+AOk-my at Reims, and in 1181 he
succeeded John of Salisbury as Bishop of Chartres. [Perhaps
should be mentioned here, that G. - Galterius de Pinserais or Goslenus -,
archdeacon of Chartres, was his relative (see Peter of Celle, letter 178 ed.
Haseldine)] 

didn't i see on your site that "Galterius" was in his family's namengut?

i don't know this archdeacon Goslen, but would have thought that he would have
been connected with the Leves family in some way --the name was prominent in
that family and Bishop Godfrey (of Leves)'s sucessor was his nephew, Goslen of
Muzy (son of his sister who married the Lord of Musy), himself named after his
maternal grandfather, Goslen, Lord of Leves, brother of Bishop Godfrey.

otOh of course, such names do not *necessarily* indicate a blood relationship
:

Bishop Goslen was godfather to the younger son of a castelan of the Beauce
(Ourarville, en plien Beauce, Southeast of Chartres).

taking the name of his godfather, Goslen of Ouarville (born c. 1150, nine
months after his father came back from Constantinople) became first a canon of
the cathedral, then (i believe) a Provost, then Cantor of the chapter, dying
in the 1220s.

>"He was highly esteemed by men like John of Salisbury, Thomas +AOA
Becket, Archbishop Eskil, Eugene III, and especially Alexander III. His
literary productions were edited by Janvier (Paris, 1671) and reprinted 
in P.L., CCII, 405-1146. They consist of 177 epistles, 95 sermons, and 4
treatises entitled: etc."

>Some newer editions:

Martel, G+AOk-rard de, Petri Cellensis, Commentaria in Ruth, Tractatus de
Tabernaculo, CCM liv, Turnhout 1983
Martel, G+AOk-rard de, Pierre de Celle +AOA Reims, in M+AOk-moires de la Soci+AOk-t+AOk
d'agriculture, commerce, sciences et arts du d+AOk-partement de la Marne,
lxxxiv, 1974, 71-105
Martel, G+AOk-rard de, L'+AOk-cole du clo+AO4-tre, Paris 1977
Haseldine, J., The letters of Peter of Celle, Oxford 2001



though not an edition of his publications, to this i might add 

Prache, Anne.  
Saint-Remi de Reims : l'+AVM-uvre de Pierre de Celle et sa place dans
l'architecture gothique. Gen+AOg-ve : Droz, cop. 1978.  

>I hope, you are not angry about these suggestions. 

absolutely to the contrary !

i am very appreciative of your efforts, Werner; very generous of you.

may i incorporate them into my page there ?

would you like credit for the revisions, or do you prefer anonymity ?

my i insert a link to your own site ?

happy to do any or all of those.

>Nobody and nothing is perfect.

not a pleasant thought, but all too true, alas.

best from here,

christopher

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