I'm going to send this again because for some strange reason it has turned into italics and left out part of Dave's original message.
-------Original Message-------
From: Rebecca Seiferle <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 04/08/03 12:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: resignations
>
> David Bircumshaw wrote: <<I did ask her
directly
to say what poems of mine were sexist, I could ask about my posts too, and
there has been no answer. There is no answer because the accusation is
unfounded.>>
Hi, Dave,
There has been "no answer," because I am, pardon my French, too damned
busy. Today, I taught my two college courses, came home for an hour and a half
to pick up my son, and then proceeded to a two hour meeting with some
artists interested in a collaborative project. Inbetween, I am going over my
translation of Vallejo's The Black Heralds which is going to be published by
Copper Canyon in November, and which I have to go through in a couple of
weeks. Tomorrow, I will be reading at the college and then visiting an honors
class and then going to lunch in the sub with the students so they can ask
me questions. The following day I will have three classes and then at 3 in
the afternoon drive the 8 hours to the other end of the state where for
three days I will participate in Poetry Jam, a program of poetry for high
school students from around the state. And that's not to say anything about
anything else. I will reply to your specific questions as soon as I can.
<<
Now I don't feel that such comments into the category of the
non-accusatory,
it's implied that I am not only sexist but ' patronizing, condescending,
dismissing what the other has to say, harrassing, etc., ' and those be
Rebecca's words not mine. Now quite clearly she states that she doesn't
know
me as a person but also she damns me as fast as she can, she's saying 'I
don't know you but I will make statements about you'. >>
I didn't make any statements about _you_, but rather commented on your
posts. I said:
Perhaps you have dozens of women friends and perhaps no woman has
ever found you to be sexist or the qualities that go along with it,
patronizing, condescending, dismissing what the other has to say,
harrassing, etc., and if so, great, but I am not evaluating you as a
person.
Now, you interpret that statement to mean the opposite of what it says,
that I am rushing to damn you by implying that you are
patronizing, condescending, etc. Well, I can't rush to damn you and imply
at the same time, I don't think, that's a little like saying I raced
through the house at a snail's pace. How much more clearly can I say that I am
"not evaluating you as a person?" And your insistence that I mean the
opposite of what I am saying is just what I mean when I say there is a deep
refusal in your posts to hear what the other, particularly if the other is a
woman, is actually saying.
Furthermore, as I see it, this discussion is somewhat disingenuous. When
criticized for a particular work or post, which is what happened on this
occasion--comment upon a particular poem--you then counter with yourself, with
your intent, your women friends, how much help you have been to a 20 year
old woman in your workshop, how your women friends swear you can't be
sexist, how there are all of these women who are writing to you backchannel out
of fear supposedly of the wrath of the feminists who aren't in hiding. In
short, you are the one who defends your posts and your poems from comment by
turning the attention to your person. And that's disingenuous, because the
person who was merely commenting about the work is then caught up in the
snare of your opinion of yourself to her own dismay. So let me be clear. I
was commenting upon your posts. I think the poems should stand or fall on
their own merits.
Best,
Rebecca
Rebecca Seiferle
<a target=_blank
href="http://www.thedrunkenboat.com">www.thedrunkenboat.com</a>
-------Original Message-------
From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 04/08/03 12:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: resignations
>
> Alison, me duck
(and I use this term with deliberation, as it is a totally non-sexist term
of friendship, great big hulking Leicester Tigers supporters will use it
one
another, as well as men to women, women to women etc etc)
You said:
>In fairness to Rebecca, who is the only person I can think of who has
said this, she did not say _you_ were sexist; she said quite rightly
she knew nothing about you personally and was in no position to make
such a comment.
She did say that she thought some of your poems and posts sent to the
list were sexist. Also, as I recall, but perhaps Rebecca herself can
correct me, she explicitly said she was saying so not in an
accusatory fashion: i.e., that she wasn't damning you or your work; but
that it was an observation based on what you had posted<
This is the first paragraph of a post of Rebecca's addressed to me:
>Dave,
I don't know you or your contexts or intent, but I have found your
arguments
and poems to be sexist, in my opinion, just reading them as they are. And
often your reply to that comment is that you "don't mean" it, you define
your intent or what you meant to say, as opposed to what you did say.
There
is often a deep refusal in your posts to _hear_ what the other is actually
saying. Perhaps you have dozens of women friends and perhaps no woman has
ever found you to be sexist or the qualities that go along with it,
patronizing, condescending, dismissing what the other has to say,
harrassing, etc., and if so, great, but I am not evaluating you as a
person.
I'm just commenting upon your posts. Even in this post, I find some
elemental of sexism in your defense of yourself.<
I did ask her
directly
to say what poems of mine were sexist, I could ask about my posts too, and
there has been no answer. There is no answer because the accusation is
unfounded.
In Friendship
Dave
David Bircumshaw
Leicester, England
Home Page
A Chide's Alphabet
Painting Without Numbers
<a
target=_blank
href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm</a>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: resignations
>At 5:58 PM +0100 4/7/03, david.bircumshaw wrote:
>Now in fairness to me it has been suggested on this list that I am
sexist.
In fairness to Rebecca, who is the only person I can think of who has
said this, she did not say _you_ were sexist; she said quite rightly
she knew nothing about you personally and was in no position to make
such a comment.
She did say that she thought some of your poems and posts sent to the
list were sexist. Also, as I recall, but perhaps Rebecca herself can
correct me, she explicitly said she was saying so not in an
accusatory fashion: ie, that she wasn't damning you or your work; but
that it was an observation based on what you had posted.
Best
A
--
Alison Croggon
Editor
Masthead Online
<a
target=_blank
href="http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/">http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/</a>
Home page
<a
target=_blank
href="http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/">http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/</a>
>
>
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