medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Yes it is. Pity the lonely, sad lot of the historical fiction author who
toils for hours and days to answer pressing questions like "What did
fourteenth-century razors look like and how often would a non-masochist
monk refresh his tonsure?" and "Could this merchant have reasonably
afforded a bright red doublet and would he or wouldn't he be subject to
arrest if he put a bit of goldwork on the sleeves?" and "What the heck
did you *do* when you got your first period in 1215?"
:-)
--Sarah Roark
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"It comes in pints?"
-----Original Message-----
From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nicole Schulman
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Plea for picky Albigensian Crusade info
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Sarah,
I am a bit confused as to what you are asking. I take it this is for
fiction?
>I'm wondering if anyone can answer a chronological/geographical
question
>for me.
>
>I'm looking at late 1208-early 1209, specifically the period between
>Pierre Castelneau's murder/Innocent III's letter declaring crusade
>(January & March 1208) and the assembling of the Crusader army at Lyons
>(June-July 1209).
>
>Does anybody have any idea what the major figures in the drama were
>doing and where they were doing it during that intervening period?
I would suggest that the best course would be to look in the indices
of the major sources for the crusade to track the whereabouts of the
people who interest you.
>(Right now I'm thinking mainly of Raymond VI
I would *guess* that he was somewhere in the county of Toulouse
>and/or Rabastans,
this is a place, not a person -- do you mean the former bishop of
Toulouse, Raimon de Rabastens? He was sent (presumably from
Toulouse) to Rome in the fall of 1208
>Arnaud-Amaury -- who I understand was "preaching Crusade in France" but
>it doesn't say where exactly,
well, he didn't preach crusade until he was given a papal writ to do
so (March 28, 1208), along with 2 other legates (the bishops of
Conserans and of Riez) -- and yes, the sources are vague.
>Bishop Fulk of Toulouse,
Folc traveled to Rome immediately after the assasination of the
legate (in my book I posit that he was a source for some of the papal
condemnations of the Count, but obviously we can't know for sure).
It is not clear when he left Rome, or where he went (although I think
he returned to his diocese). There is no evidence that he
participated in this round of preaching in the North. He was in
Arles in November.
>Simon de Montfort
>and other leaders of Crusader contingents.)
His family land in France? (this is just a guess)
>Basically, what I need to
>know is where in France a Languedocien monk
well, that is a contradiction right there. "France" did not include
the Toulousain, at least according to the people who lived there at
the time.
And why a monk?
>who's kinda-sorta soft on
>Cathars but perfectly orthodox himself might want to go to get the
>straight story on what the plans for the Crusade were.
Do you mean like Guillelm de Puylaurens? (The 3rd major source).
OK, I realize that this is fiction, but this is a really
anachronistic question. Medieval monks weren't investigative
reporters, following a scoop.
Also, what do you mean "the plans." Whose plans? The military plans
for going to kill all those festering heretics? Once Simon de
Montfort was selected as the leader i would suppose he would be the
one to ask... Yet the crusade was not merely an army that went about
killing people. this is one of the aspects that makes discussing it
a bit confusing. The "crusade" of Northerners going about the
Languedoc was only officially a crusade part of the time. There were
points when it was not officially a crusade. So on the one hand you
have the tangible reality of an army of people (different people,
since membership varied over time) going about sieging cities etc...
and on the other hand you have the pope, and his advisors, who try to
use the offer of indulgence to accomplish various aims -- but these
aims too change over time. At any given time these two "plans" were
different.
>What he's most
>interested in finding out is what the likelihood is of Raymond being
>able to pull it out of the fire and successfully divert the Crusade
from
>county Toulouse.
I'm not following you. Raimon joined the crusade in 1209, hence
protecting (for a while at least) his own lands.
>I was originally going to send him to Lyons but it
>looks to me like nobody of significance to the Crusade was *in* Lyons
>till summer 1209 (correct me if I'm wrong),
You are probably right
>and I need him on the move
>before then.
>
Well fiction is fiction, so you could always just make stuff up ;)
but really, it seems that the most sensible place for a Langdocian
monk to obtain privy information about what was going on would either
be in the entourage of Count Raimon (who would actually have spoken
the same language as him as well as lived in the same part of the
world), or that of either Arnaud-Amalric or Simon de M. (though what
he would be doing in the latter is beyond me).
And let me drop this bit of information FYI; Bishop Folc of Toulouse
had two sons, who were Cistercian monks like him. Although they
ended up in the monastery of Grandselves, there is (as far as I know,
and I should know) *zero* information about either of their
activities or whereabouts just before or during the crusade. And
Arnaud-Amalric was the head of the Cistercians... So there are two
guys with some good connections, about whom we know precious little
(but if you use this I want credit!)
--
Nicole Morgan Schulman <[log in to unmask]>
_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._.
_.
Omittamus studia dulce est desipere et carpamus dulcia iuventutis tenere
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