medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>According to the Guide Michelin (sorry, it's the only book close at hand
hey, Any Port in a Storm, is my motto, MG.
the way the Indiana University lieberry here is self-destructing (the "old"
card catalogue got trashed --literally-- last month) stuff like the Guide
Michelin (web version, of course) will be all we'll need in a few years.
or, at least, all we'll *have* to rely on.
>in 774 Charles Martel secularized much Church property. But the metropolitan
of Reims received the title of archbishop, confirming his spreading authority
over neighboring dioceses. At the same time, a network of parishes is formed
over which his authority becomes ever greater.
mmmmm... only problem i have with *this* theory is the implication that the
kingdom(s) were given their [arch]diocesean divisions somewhat piecemeal, one
at a time, which doesn't sound right, albeit possible, i suppose.
(question to self : does Gregory of Tours speak of "archbishops" ? answer
below.)
>In 816 Louis the Pious is sacred at Reims (by Pope Stephen IV, however, not
the archb.), beginning the long tradition of anointing French kings there (and
furthered later by Hincmar's fanciful account of Clovis and the dove and the
"sainte ampoule," etc. etc.)
what ! ?
Clovis wasn't buried in Galla Palcidia's tomb at Reims ?
the Guide Bleu fails me again ??
>As for the sorting out of dioceses in Merovingian and Carolingian
Gaul/Francia, this would follow the history of who had what "kingdom" when,
and the whole complicated mess gives me a headache.
i can certainly sympathise with the headache part, but would it necessarily
follow that the ecclesiastical provences would shift with the politcal sands
?
>I do know that Paris was not the important place it is today until relatively
late. Soissons, Noyon, Lyon, Sens, Troyes, Laon - these were all at least as
important as Paris
yes, that's my understanding, too (or, at least all but Troyes, which i didn't
realise was in the same class as the others) --but i was thinking of the size
and geographical importance of late antique Paris, which were both
considerable, i believe.
>PROBABLY until Suger put Saint-Denis on the map.
certainly Laon was dear to the Carolingians and, to judge by the reconstructed
royal itineraries (mostly worked out from charter issuing locales) Paris
didn't really start to acquire any outstanding status until late in Louis VI's
reign (at the earliest), if not Louis VII's.
whether or not Suger's role was incidental to this process is a matter of some
speculation, i would suppose.
but clearly Philip Augustus' reign is pivotal, with his new walls, more or
less established chancery (or, at least, royal archives), and spiffy new
Louvre.
>I *think* it took a very ambitious bishop or abbot plus a bit of luck and a
lot of schmoozing to get an archdiocese formed
unless, as Ray Lavoie has happily suggested, the provencial/diocean divisions
were Roman and not subject to Dark Age Messinesses.
>I'll await this info with as much eager anticipation as you.
yes; someone unencumbered by my level of ignorance should certainly come forth
soon.
----------------------------
search on "Archiepiscop" in Gregory of Tours (PL 71) :
it's the devil to read this on-line text i've got, but apparently the only
hits are from the modern notes & appartus, not from Gregory's text itself.
he speaks of "bishops" of what we would call archepiscopal sees ("Egidius
Rhemensis urbis episcopus" [c.491C]), but it may be that the term
"archiepiscop*" just wasn't used, in his time (?).
-------------------------------
thanks for the thoughts, MG.
christopher
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|